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As a lawyer, I feel like your comment is reflective of the general misunderstandings around this issue. Sit through a docket or two and you come to a few concl

As a lawyer, I feel like your comment is reflective of the general misunderstandings around this issue. Sit through a docket or two and you come to a few conclusions. 1. They're all guilty. This is a corollary of: prosecutors like shooting fish in a barrel, not prosecuting cases where they might have to actually work. 2. The role of the defense lawyer in 99% of these cases is to keep them from disrupting the proceedings. 3. Probation / alternative sentences don't work. A good horsewhipping in the town square and 90 hard labor on the farm would be a much more effective way to get through to these people (and thus ultimately more humane).

carapace 2y ago
Even if what you're saying is true (and I grew up with dudes like you're describing) it's extremely important that those folks get due process. If we (the non-criminals) don't hold up the ideals of civilization then we lose the right to perform "justice" on these offenders, eh? I've heard dudes say, "the cops are just another gang", due process is how we make that not true. Further, a lot of the people who can't control themselves are /also/ victims: lead in the water and air, moms who took drugs during pregnancy (the most out-of-control kid I knew back in the day was a "crack baby", he was neurologically damaged before he was born.) Whippings and forced farm labor (you realize you're describing slavery?) are not a solution to criminality.
- tiahura 2y ago
  people who can't control themselves are /also/ victims: We tried that approach for the last 60 years. Sit through a docket to witness for yourself its efficacy.
  - FireBeyond 2y ago
    Corporal and capital punishment don't reduce crime. All they do is give people - often people who have no involvement or had no impact from the crime - the feeling of vengeance. Except it's the criminal justice system, not the criminal vengeance system.
  - carapace 2y ago
    > We tried that approach for the last 60 years. Have we really? I'm no expert, I'm asking. In any event, two wrongs don't make a right. The kind of vindictive punishment you advocate is itself wrong. Let's look at systems that have managed to lower rates of recidivism?
FireBeyond 2y ago
Oof. There's another attorney in this thread who seems genuinely unsure why we should be devoting time, effort or energy into people who are "obviously probably guilty". Genuinely unsure might be stretching it too. "Complex criminal defense cases where there's a decent chance the person may not be guilty should get resources, everything else? Eh." Like... Law School 101. That attitude in an attorney is genuinely disappointing at best, frightening at worst. I work in a field where "compassion fatigue" and burnout are very very real things (after you administer Narcan to someone for the third time that week, or you go to the home of the person who calls 911 at 3am because they stubbed their toe several days ago and now it has a hangnail that's catching on their bedsheets and making it "difficult" to fall asleep)... but being blunt - the day those feelings overtake you is the day you should consider what you are doing and why you are doing it.
- tiahura 2y ago
  It has nothing to do with fatigue. It has to do with being able to see rather obvious patterns when they're repeated 100 times a day, day after day, in courtrooms across the country. As an attorney, I will always fight zealously for my clients, that doesn't mean I can't form opinions about the system as a whole.
  - FireBeyond 2y ago
    > As an attorney, I will always fight zealously for my clients, that doesn't mean I can't form opinions about the system as a whole. The point of compassion fatigue is that when you start forming these opinions about the people you see, consciously or subconsciously, can you be as sure you are as zealously advocating for your clients as they deserve? I don't mean to impugn you, to be clear. But that's the thing in EMS too, how am I sure I don't dismiss a patient's complaint as whining, when it's the third time I've seen them that week, even if I take care of everything else they have going on? And how long is it before that compassion fatigue leads me to miss or overlook a pertinent finding that has consequences for them?
stainablesteel 2y ago
a part of the "justice" system is not just to get justice for victims who have been wronged but its also to get justice for the guilty, to make them understand their wrongs and feel that they should be punished to infuriate people with petty bureaucracy and form-filling as an extremely dangerous gotcha-game does not make them feel like the system actually does them "justice". punishments are meant to bring someone back into society, but if they go into that punishment thinking they were wronged by the process itself, its only making it worse for everyone
Forgeties79 2y ago
Everyone is entitled to due process and a certain burden of proof regardless of whether or not the vast majority are generally guilty. The courts should not be dictated by efficiency, but by everyone's rights being fully respected. I understand what reality is but we should strive for better and accept nothing less.

carapace 2y ago

Even if what you're saying is true (and I grew up with dudes like you're describing) it's extremely important that those folks get due process. If we (the non-criminals) don't hold up the ideals of civilization then we lose the right to perform "justice" on these offenders, eh? I've heard dudes say, "the cops are just another gang", due process is how we make that not true. Further, a lot of the people who can't control themselves are /also/ victims: lead in the water and air, moms who took drugs during pregnancy (the most out-of-control kid I knew back in the day was a "crack baby", he was neurologically damaged before he was born.) Whippings and forced farm labor (you realize you're describing slavery?) are not a solution to criminality.

tiahura 2y ago
people who can't control themselves are /also/ victims: We tried that approach for the last 60 years. Sit through a docket to witness for yourself its efficacy.
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  Corporal and capital punishment don't reduce crime. All they do is give people - often people who have no involvement or had no impact from the crime - the feeling of vengeance. Except it's the criminal justice system, not the criminal vengeance system.
- carapace 2y ago
  > We tried that approach for the last 60 years. Have we really? I'm no expert, I'm asking. In any event, two wrongs don't make a right. The kind of vindictive punishment you advocate is itself wrong. Let's look at systems that have managed to lower rates of recidivism?

FireBeyond 2y ago

Oof. There's another attorney in this thread who seems genuinely unsure why we should be devoting time, effort or energy into people who are "obviously probably guilty". Genuinely unsure might be stretching it too. "Complex criminal defense cases where there's a decent chance the person may not be guilty should get resources, everything else? Eh." Like... Law School 101. That attitude in an attorney is genuinely disappointing at best, frightening at worst. I work in a field where "compassion fatigue" and burnout are very very real things (after you administer Narcan to someone for the third time that week, or you go to the home of the person who calls 911 at 3am because they stubbed their toe several days ago and now it has a hangnail that's catching on their bedsheets and making it "difficult" to fall asleep)... but being blunt - the day those feelings overtake you is the day you should consider what you are doing and why you are doing it.

tiahura 2y ago
It has nothing to do with fatigue. It has to do with being able to see rather obvious patterns when they're repeated 100 times a day, day after day, in courtrooms across the country. As an attorney, I will always fight zealously for my clients, that doesn't mean I can't form opinions about the system as a whole.
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  > As an attorney, I will always fight zealously for my clients, that doesn't mean I can't form opinions about the system as a whole. The point of compassion fatigue is that when you start forming these opinions about the people you see, consciously or subconsciously, can you be as sure you are as zealously advocating for your clients as they deserve? I don't mean to impugn you, to be clear. But that's the thing in EMS too, how am I sure I don't dismiss a patient's complaint as whining, when it's the third time I've seen them that week, even if I take care of everything else they have going on? And how long is it before that compassion fatigue leads me to miss or overlook a pertinent finding that has consequences for them?

stainablesteel 2y ago

a part of the "justice" system is not just to get justice for victims who have been wronged but its also to get justice for the guilty, to make them understand their wrongs and feel that they should be punished to infuriate people with petty bureaucracy and form-filling as an extremely dangerous gotcha-game does not make them feel like the system actually does them "justice". punishments are meant to bring someone back into society, but if they go into that punishment thinking they were wronged by the process itself, its only making it worse for everyone

Forgeties79 2y ago

Everyone is entitled to due process and a certain burden of proof regardless of whether or not the vast majority are generally guilty. The courts should not be dictated by efficiency, but by everyone's rights being fully respected. I understand what reality is but we should strive for better and accept nothing less.