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I think SQL is due for a renaissance, and I hope htmx is part of that. I know htmx has a reputation as being something only a backend developer could love, but

I think SQL is due for a renaissance, and I hope htmx is part of that. I know htmx has a reputation as being something only a backend developer could love, but I think that in a few years some of the most effective htmx developers are going to be front end developers who know the web stack (CSS, JS, HTML) well and who have figured out how to use SQL effectively. If you are smart enough to figure out GraphQL, you are smart enough to figure out SQL, and SQL comes without the security/expressiveness tradeoff[1] inherent in front-end data access technologies. You have hypermedia-oriented tools like hotwire, unpoly & htmx pushing data access back onto the server, and at the same time things like React Server Components doing the same. I'm very bullish on SQL. 1 - https://intercoolerjs.org/2016/02/17/api-churn-vs-security.html https://intercoolerjs.org/2016/02/17/api-churn-vs-security.h...

gz09 2y ago
Coincidentially, SQL is having a "revival" in the streaming world... feldera, materialize, arroyo and many others are all betting on SQL as the language to express computation on moving data.
- WWWMMMWWW 2y ago
  Just used 3 tier nested sub selects and joins to diagnose a major incident, the breadth of what it can process is awesome. Without SQL there would have been no way to determine the extent of the issue. People forget that SQL is the only 4th gen language in common prod use. Python, Java, C# are only 3rd gen.
codebeaker 2y ago
Can you say more about (the|your perceived) relationship between SQL and htmx? When looking up HTMX[1] I was surprised to see what looks like a relatively young project with no direct relation obvious to SQL. [1]: https://htmx.org/ https://htmx.org/
- recursivedoubts 2y ago
  htmx is a hypermedia-oriented library (like hotwire, unpoly, etc.) and so when you use htmx you exchange HTML with the server, rather than JSON. This means that HTML construction takes place on the server side, where SQL is available. This is in contrast with traditional SPA libraries such as React, which typically access data via JSON APIs and construct a user interface on the client side. You can't make SQL generally available on the client side due to the obvious security issues, but projects like GraphQL have attempted to make the client side more flexible. Unfortunately I believe there is an inherent trade off with client-side data access that I outline here: https://intercoolerjs.org/2016/02/17/api-churn-vs-security.html https://intercoolerjs.org/2016/02/17/api-churn-vs-security.h... So, as developers rediscover hypermedia & hypermedia oriented libraries, they will suddenly have access to SQL again. And, as I mention above, new technologies like React Server Components, by putting evaluation on the server, also make SQL more easily accessible for developers.
lurking15 2y ago
In Codd we trust
- recursivedoubts 2y ago
  based
- randomdata 2y ago
  Codd was no fan of SQL.
raxxorraxor 2y ago
I think SQL doesn't go away anytime soon and will live through GraphQL. With distributed systems you probably interface another web api of some type instead of an SQL-DB and often it is just annoying. Some people pretend that you shouldn't use any SQL-server today and instead use current-hipster-web-accessible-database. But these often just simply don't deliver, are expensive, have performance problems, lacking compatibility and a whole other issues. edit: Some cloud consultants increasingly say that nobody uses SQL anymore. Makes me chuckle a bit.
- randomdata 2y ago
  > Some people pretend that you shouldn't use any SQL-server today and instead use current-hipster-web-accessible-database. More commonly, there are the people who use a SQL server at the lowest level, but then stick another database layer on top in order to provide a more friendly querying experience for the bulk of the users. The prevailing idea is absolutely that most people shouldn't have to use SQL, and most likely that they should use a hipster-web-accessible database, even if SQL exists somewhere inside of a black box. Niche does not imply that something is nonexistent, but it does seem pretty clear that we go to great lengths to ensure that most people don't have to use SQL, limiting its use to a narrow set of developers who specialize in that niche, while everyone else uses higher level languages to communicate with the database. Which is not at all what SQL envisioned in its infancy. It was supposed to be the language for all business people far and wide.

gz09 2y ago

Coincidentially, SQL is having a "revival" in the streaming world... feldera, materialize, arroyo and many others are all betting on SQL as the language to express computation on moving data.

WWWMMMWWW 2y ago
Just used 3 tier nested sub selects and joins to diagnose a major incident, the breadth of what it can process is awesome. Without SQL there would have been no way to determine the extent of the issue. People forget that SQL is the only 4th gen language in common prod use. Python, Java, C# are only 3rd gen.

codebeaker 2y ago

Can you say more about (the|your perceived) relationship between SQL and htmx? When looking up HTMX[1] I was surprised to see what looks like a relatively young project with no direct relation obvious to SQL. [1]: https://htmx.org/ https://htmx.org/

recursivedoubts 2y ago
htmx is a hypermedia-oriented library (like hotwire, unpoly, etc.) and so when you use htmx you exchange HTML with the server, rather than JSON. This means that HTML construction takes place on the server side, where SQL is available. This is in contrast with traditional SPA libraries such as React, which typically access data via JSON APIs and construct a user interface on the client side. You can't make SQL generally available on the client side due to the obvious security issues, but projects like GraphQL have attempted to make the client side more flexible. Unfortunately I believe there is an inherent trade off with client-side data access that I outline here: https://intercoolerjs.org/2016/02/17/api-churn-vs-security.html https://intercoolerjs.org/2016/02/17/api-churn-vs-security.h... So, as developers rediscover hypermedia & hypermedia oriented libraries, they will suddenly have access to SQL again. And, as I mention above, new technologies like React Server Components, by putting evaluation on the server, also make SQL more easily accessible for developers.

lurking15 2y ago

In Codd we trust

recursivedoubts 2y ago
based
randomdata 2y ago
Codd was no fan of SQL.

raxxorraxor 2y ago

I think SQL doesn't go away anytime soon and will live through GraphQL. With distributed systems you probably interface another web api of some type instead of an SQL-DB and often it is just annoying. Some people pretend that you shouldn't use any SQL-server today and instead use current-hipster-web-accessible-database. But these often just simply don't deliver, are expensive, have performance problems, lacking compatibility and a whole other issues. edit: Some cloud consultants increasingly say that nobody uses SQL anymore. Makes me chuckle a bit.

randomdata 2y ago
> Some people pretend that you shouldn't use any SQL-server today and instead use current-hipster-web-accessible-database. More commonly, there are the people who use a SQL server at the lowest level, but then stick another database layer on top in order to provide a more friendly querying experience for the bulk of the users. The prevailing idea is absolutely that most people shouldn't have to use SQL, and most likely that they should use a hipster-web-accessible database, even if SQL exists somewhere inside of a black box. Niche does not imply that something is nonexistent, but it does seem pretty clear that we go to great lengths to ensure that most people don't have to use SQL, limiting its use to a narrow set of developers who specialize in that niche, while everyone else uses higher level languages to communicate with the database. Which is not at all what SQL envisioned in its infancy. It was supposed to be the language for all business people far and wide.