3 ms·

A bit tangential to your argument, but > Especially if its not even something illegal in the first place (like spying on Angela Merkel). There's a good chance

by cesarb 2y ago

A bit tangential to your argument, but > Especially if its not even something illegal in the first place (like spying on Angela Merkel). There's a good chance that this was illegal according to German law, and depending on the exact details on how it was done, there's also a good chance that it could be considered as being under German jurisdiction. Think about it in the opposite direction: if a German citizen had wiretapped the USA president's mobile phone, the USA would probably consider that act as being under USA jurisdiction, and illegal according to USA laws, even if said German citizen had never set foot outside Germany. That's the reason "some might find [this] distasteful". They're breaking other country's laws, in a way which would also break USA law if the situation was reversed (so they can't even say that the other country's laws are bad and wrong), and hiding behind "[it] is very much legal" (in the USA), even though that argument would not be accepted by the USA if the situation was reversed.

pcthrowaway 2y ago
And it's not like the U.S. and Germany were at war.
reaperman 2y ago
> They're breaking other country's laws, in a way which would also break USA law if the situation was reversed (so they can't even say that the other country's laws are bad and wrong), and hiding behind "[it] is very much legal" (in the USA), even though that argument would not be accepted by the USA if the situation was reversed. Except that US allies spy on the USA, constantly, and it very much is accepted by the USA! This is expected, accepted, and happens all the time. Head of French National Intelligence admits to spying on the USA: https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarcini-dcri-hollande-ayrault-merkel-usa-obama https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squar... “The French intelligence services know full well that all countries, whether or not they are allies in the fight against terrorism, spy on each other all the time,” he said. “The Americans spy on French commercial and industrial interests, and we do the same to them because it’s in the national interest to protect our companies.” “There was nothing of any real surprise in this report,” he added. “No one is fooled.” https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-intelligence-also-snooped-on-white-house-a-1153592.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-intellig... Germany has also admitted to spying on the White House specifically, along with surveilling “telephone and fax numbers as well as email accounts belonging to American companies like Lockheed Martin, the space agency NASA, the organization Human Rights Watch, universities in several U.S. states and military facilities like the U.S. Air Force, the Marine Corps and the Defense Intelligence Agency,” and phone lines “at the U.S. Treasury Department and the State Department” > There's a good chance that this was illegal according to German law, and depending on the exact details on how it was done, there's also a good chance that it could be considered as being under German jurisdiction. This is an absolutely absurd argument against spying. Should no one ever spy on Russia or North Korea just because they make a law against it? Only spy if you’ve declared war on them? How do you see this working in the real world? As written, it holds no water and would need to be steel-manned beyond recognition to approach anything reasonable.
- cesarb 2y ago
  > This is an absolutely absurd argument against spying. Should no one ever spy on Russia or North Korea just because they make a law against it? It's not an argument against spying. It's an argument against saying that spying "is not illegal". When you're spying on Russia or North Korea, you are breaking Russian or North Korean law, and you can't avoid that by saying "but my own country's laws say otherwise". There are many cases in which breaking laws can be justified (the canonical example being breaking segregation laws in the USA some time ago), spying on Russia and North Korea might be one of these cases; but you're still breaking the law.
lesuorac 2y ago
If that german citizen stepped foot in the USA, they might get arrest for espionage. But I highly doubt a German court/judge is going to approve an arrest warrant for a presumably sanctioned activity. Now, if a private german citizen wiretapped the USA's president's phone for the lulz then yeah they might get arrested and extradited. Whether or not something is illegal is in the eye of the beholder and IIUC, Title 50 Section 36 explicitly makes espionage legal [1] (when done by the US against other people). [1]: https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title50/chapter36&edition=prelim https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title50/cha...
kortilla 2y ago
This is a thread about US laws and about whistleblower protection for pointing out when US laws are broken. A nation state ignoring other nation state’s laws during espionage happens all of the time. Every country has a CIA/NSA equivalent that constantly breaks other’s laws. This extends to many operations. Lookup “diplomatic immunity” to see how this concept even extends to people in country.

by cesarb 2y ago

pcthrowaway 2y ago

And it's not like the U.S. and Germany were at war.

reaperman 2y ago

> They're breaking other country's laws, in a way which would also break USA law if the situation was reversed (so they can't even say that the other country's laws are bad and wrong), and hiding behind "[it] is very much legal" (in the USA), even though that argument would not be accepted by the USA if the situation was reversed. Except that US allies spy on the USA, constantly, and it very much is accepted by the USA! This is expected, accepted, and happens all the time. Head of French National Intelligence admits to spying on the USA: https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarcini-dcri-hollande-ayrault-merkel-usa-obama https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squar... “The French intelligence services know full well that all countries, whether or not they are allies in the fight against terrorism, spy on each other all the time,” he said. “The Americans spy on French commercial and industrial interests, and we do the same to them because it’s in the national interest to protect our companies.” “There was nothing of any real surprise in this report,” he added. “No one is fooled.” https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-intelligence-also-snooped-on-white-house-a-1153592.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-intellig... Germany has also admitted to spying on the White House specifically, along with surveilling “telephone and fax numbers as well as email accounts belonging to American companies like Lockheed Martin, the space agency NASA, the organization Human Rights Watch, universities in several U.S. states and military facilities like the U.S. Air Force, the Marine Corps and the Defense Intelligence Agency,” and phone lines “at the U.S. Treasury Department and the State Department” > There's a good chance that this was illegal according to German law, and depending on the exact details on how it was done, there's also a good chance that it could be considered as being under German jurisdiction. This is an absolutely absurd argument against spying. Should no one ever spy on Russia or North Korea just because they make a law against it? Only spy if you’ve declared war on them? How do you see this working in the real world? As written, it holds no water and would need to be steel-manned beyond recognition to approach anything reasonable.

cesarb 2y ago
> This is an absolutely absurd argument against spying. Should no one ever spy on Russia or North Korea just because they make a law against it? It's not an argument against spying. It's an argument against saying that spying "is not illegal". When you're spying on Russia or North Korea, you are breaking Russian or North Korean law, and you can't avoid that by saying "but my own country's laws say otherwise". There are many cases in which breaking laws can be justified (the canonical example being breaking segregation laws in the USA some time ago), spying on Russia and North Korea might be one of these cases; but you're still breaking the law.

lesuorac 2y ago

If that german citizen stepped foot in the USA, they might get arrest for espionage. But I highly doubt a German court/judge is going to approve an arrest warrant for a presumably sanctioned activity. Now, if a private german citizen wiretapped the USA's president's phone for the lulz then yeah they might get arrested and extradited. Whether or not something is illegal is in the eye of the beholder and IIUC, Title 50 Section 36 explicitly makes espionage legal [1] (when done by the US against other people). [1]: https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title50/chapter36&edition=prelim https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title50/cha...

kortilla 2y ago

This is a thread about US laws and about whistleblower protection for pointing out when US laws are broken. A nation state ignoring other nation state’s laws during espionage happens all of the time. Every country has a CIA/NSA equivalent that constantly breaks other’s laws. This extends to many operations. Lookup “diplomatic immunity” to see how this concept even extends to people in country.