4 ms·

> agreement that NATO won't expand east of Germany What agreement? Even Gorbachev (last leader of USSR) confirmed that there was no such agreement. https://ww

> agreement that NATO won't expand east of Germany What agreement? Even Gorbachev (last leader of USSR) confirmed that there was no such agreement. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/did-nato-promise-not-to-e... And it did not voluntarily dissolved itself, it fell apart. Like when your plate voluntarily dissolves itself when you drop it on the floor.

richrichie 2y ago
[flagged]
- mopsi 2y ago
  > It is pretty well established now that this was indeed the case. It is not. The title of your linked article is "What Gorbachev heard" - why speculate instead of asking him? Gorbachev, Shevardnadze, Yazov and other top USSR officials have all said that there was no such thing. Gorbachev even went on to explain why it couldn't have been even in theory: democratically elected leaders can't give any promises beyond their term limits. Shevardnadze, the foreign minister of USSR at the time, gave a lengthy interview[1] where he described how the soundbites you quote were related to German reunification and have been taken out of context. His successor Kozyrev, the first foreign minister of the Russian Federation, has been even more direct and called people who keep pushing this narrative idiots. In 1990, nobody in USSR's leadership expected the USSR and Warsaw Pact to collapse in such a short time, let alone negotiate how Europe would look like afterwards. It simply does not fit the timeline nor the way diplomacy is conducted. It's a textbook example of a hoax. Beyond that, whatever happened in 1990 was superseded by a written treaty between NATO and Russia in 1997, before anyone from Eastern Europe was admitted, in which Russia reiterates the "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security".[2] Back then, Russia was still receiving food aid from the US, and was in no position to make any demands. The rewritten version of history that has that fictional promise at its core was invented in mid-2000s. [1] https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-eduard-shevardnadze-we-couldn-t-believe-that-the-warsaw-pact-could-be-dissolved-a-663595.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-e... [2] https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_25468.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_25468.htm
- TheLoafOfBread 2y ago
  So now what others believe he heard is more important than what he said? Oh wait, what he said does not fit your narrative about NATO. Got it.

richrichie 2y ago

[flagged]

mopsi 2y ago
> It is pretty well established now that this was indeed the case. It is not. The title of your linked article is "What Gorbachev heard" - why speculate instead of asking him? Gorbachev, Shevardnadze, Yazov and other top USSR officials have all said that there was no such thing. Gorbachev even went on to explain why it couldn't have been even in theory: democratically elected leaders can't give any promises beyond their term limits. Shevardnadze, the foreign minister of USSR at the time, gave a lengthy interview[1] where he described how the soundbites you quote were related to German reunification and have been taken out of context. His successor Kozyrev, the first foreign minister of the Russian Federation, has been even more direct and called people who keep pushing this narrative idiots. In 1990, nobody in USSR's leadership expected the USSR and Warsaw Pact to collapse in such a short time, let alone negotiate how Europe would look like afterwards. It simply does not fit the timeline nor the way diplomacy is conducted. It's a textbook example of a hoax. Beyond that, whatever happened in 1990 was superseded by a written treaty between NATO and Russia in 1997, before anyone from Eastern Europe was admitted, in which Russia reiterates the "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security".[2] Back then, Russia was still receiving food aid from the US, and was in no position to make any demands. The rewritten version of history that has that fictional promise at its core was invented in mid-2000s. [1] https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-eduard-shevardnadze-we-couldn-t-believe-that-the-warsaw-pact-could-be-dissolved-a-663595.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-e... [2] https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_25468.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_25468.htm
TheLoafOfBread 2y ago
So now what others believe he heard is more important than what he said? Oh wait, what he said does not fit your narrative about NATO. Got it.