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Nonsense. Don't invade your friendly neighbors, and peace is simple. Ukraine gave up their nukes and signed the Budapest memorandum with Russia. Russia turned a

by ericb 2y ago

Nonsense. Don't invade your friendly neighbors, and peace is simple. Ukraine gave up their nukes and signed the Budapest memorandum with Russia. Russia turned around and invaded Ukraine. So, sob stories about torn up security "agreements" with Russia are just crocodile tears. Nato doesn't "expand." Countries join it for protection from predatory nations like Russia. Russia is NATO's greatest salesperson. Seriously.

richrichie 2y ago
> friendly neighbor > Ukraine gave up their nukes and signed the Budapest memorandum with Russia For a moment, let's take your highly simplistic statement at face value. USSR gave up East Germany and voluntarily dissolved itself on the agreement that NATO won't expand east of Germany and Russia will be "admitted" into the West. What do we do about that now?
- TheLoafOfBread 2y ago
  > agreement that NATO won't expand east of Germany What agreement? Even Gorbachev (last leader of USSR) confirmed that there was no such agreement. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/did-nato-promise-not-to-e... And it did not voluntarily dissolved itself, it fell apart. Like when your plate voluntarily dissolves itself when you drop it on the floor.
  - richrichie 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - mopsi 2y ago
      > It is pretty well established now that this was indeed the case. It is not. The title of your linked article is "What Gorbachev heard" - why speculate instead of asking him? Gorbachev, Shevardnadze, Yazov and other top USSR officials have all said that there was no such thing. Gorbachev even went on to explain why it couldn't have been even in theory: democratically elected leaders can't give any promises beyond their term limits. Shevardnadze, the foreign minister of USSR at the time, gave a lengthy interview[1] where he described how the soundbites you quote were related to German reunification and have been taken out of context. His successor Kozyrev, the first foreign minister of the Russian Federation, has been even more direct and called people who keep pushing this narrative idiots. In 1990, nobody in USSR's leadership expected the USSR and Warsaw Pact to collapse in such a short time, let alone negotiate how Europe would look like afterwards. It simply does not fit the timeline nor the way diplomacy is conducted. It's a textbook example of a hoax. Beyond that, whatever happened in 1990 was superseded by a written treaty between NATO and Russia in 1997, before anyone from Eastern Europe was admitted, in which Russia reiterates the "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security".[2] Back then, Russia was still receiving food aid from the US, and was in no position to make any demands. The rewritten version of history that has that fictional promise at its core was invented in mid-2000s. [1] https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-eduard-shevardnadze-we-couldn-t-believe-that-the-warsaw-pact-could-be-dissolved-a-663595.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-e... [2] https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_25468.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_25468.htm
    - TheLoafOfBread 2y ago
      So now what others believe he heard is more important than what he said? Oh wait, what he said does not fit your narrative about NATO. Got it.
- ericb 2y ago
  Can you point me to this treaty? Russia had admittance into the West. It wasn't serious about it. There was excitement to welcome Russia into commerce and brotherhood with the West. Russia wasn't considered an enemy after the fall of the Soviet Union until it chose to be, by becoming an expansionist power under Putin. An easy way to tell is to look at American movies in that time period--Russians stopped featuring as the default villain in American movies--no more "Ivan Drago" as foreign antagonists. The opportunity was there. NATO doesn't threaten non-expansionist powers as a defensive treaty. Read the treaty. Being "admitted" into the west is easy--don't invade other countries, send little green men army invasions or make bellicose nuclear threats, and focus on business-first and the red carpet rolls itself out.
- mopsi 2y ago
  > For a moment, let's take your highly simplistic statement at face value. USSR gave up East Germany and voluntarily dissolved itself on the agreement that NATO won't expand east of Germany and Russia will be "admitted" into the West. What do we do about that now? "Myth," Gorbachev said. "Had we had an agreement, we would've written it down," he added: https://x.com/splendid_pete/status/1650735533826375680 https://x.com/splendid_pete/status/1650735533826375680
  - petre 2y ago
    Of course it's all BS. Putin was stationed in Dresden, the GDR in 1989 and he probably shit his pants when the Wall fell and the KGB was too busy with other stuff to extract him. That's why he made up this childrens' story that the US promised not to expand NATO Eastward: misundertanding + whisful thinking + PTSD. https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-06-15/russia-putin-early-kgb-years-east-germany-helped-shape-him https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-06-15/russia...
- rasz 2y ago
  USSR didnt dissolve itself, it collapsed.

by ericb 2y ago

richrichie 2y ago

> friendly neighbor > Ukraine gave up their nukes and signed the Budapest memorandum with Russia For a moment, let's take your highly simplistic statement at face value. USSR gave up East Germany and voluntarily dissolved itself on the agreement that NATO won't expand east of Germany and Russia will be "admitted" into the West. What do we do about that now?

TheLoafOfBread 2y ago
> agreement that NATO won't expand east of Germany What agreement? Even Gorbachev (last leader of USSR) confirmed that there was no such agreement. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/did-nato-promise-not-to-e... And it did not voluntarily dissolved itself, it fell apart. Like when your plate voluntarily dissolves itself when you drop it on the floor.
- richrichie 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - mopsi 2y ago
    > It is pretty well established now that this was indeed the case. It is not. The title of your linked article is "What Gorbachev heard" - why speculate instead of asking him? Gorbachev, Shevardnadze, Yazov and other top USSR officials have all said that there was no such thing. Gorbachev even went on to explain why it couldn't have been even in theory: democratically elected leaders can't give any promises beyond their term limits. Shevardnadze, the foreign minister of USSR at the time, gave a lengthy interview[1] where he described how the soundbites you quote were related to German reunification and have been taken out of context. His successor Kozyrev, the first foreign minister of the Russian Federation, has been even more direct and called people who keep pushing this narrative idiots. In 1990, nobody in USSR's leadership expected the USSR and Warsaw Pact to collapse in such a short time, let alone negotiate how Europe would look like afterwards. It simply does not fit the timeline nor the way diplomacy is conducted. It's a textbook example of a hoax. Beyond that, whatever happened in 1990 was superseded by a written treaty between NATO and Russia in 1997, before anyone from Eastern Europe was admitted, in which Russia reiterates the "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security".[2] Back then, Russia was still receiving food aid from the US, and was in no position to make any demands. The rewritten version of history that has that fictional promise at its core was invented in mid-2000s. [1] https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-eduard-shevardnadze-we-couldn-t-believe-that-the-warsaw-pact-could-be-dissolved-a-663595.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-e... [2] https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_25468.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_25468.htm
  - TheLoafOfBread 2y ago
    So now what others believe he heard is more important than what he said? Oh wait, what he said does not fit your narrative about NATO. Got it.
ericb 2y ago
Can you point me to this treaty? Russia had admittance into the West. It wasn't serious about it. There was excitement to welcome Russia into commerce and brotherhood with the West. Russia wasn't considered an enemy after the fall of the Soviet Union until it chose to be, by becoming an expansionist power under Putin. An easy way to tell is to look at American movies in that time period--Russians stopped featuring as the default villain in American movies--no more "Ivan Drago" as foreign antagonists. The opportunity was there. NATO doesn't threaten non-expansionist powers as a defensive treaty. Read the treaty. Being "admitted" into the west is easy--don't invade other countries, send little green men army invasions or make bellicose nuclear threats, and focus on business-first and the red carpet rolls itself out.
mopsi 2y ago
> For a moment, let's take your highly simplistic statement at face value. USSR gave up East Germany and voluntarily dissolved itself on the agreement that NATO won't expand east of Germany and Russia will be "admitted" into the West. What do we do about that now? "Myth," Gorbachev said. "Had we had an agreement, we would've written it down," he added: https://x.com/splendid_pete/status/1650735533826375680 https://x.com/splendid_pete/status/1650735533826375680
- petre 2y ago
  Of course it's all BS. Putin was stationed in Dresden, the GDR in 1989 and he probably shit his pants when the Wall fell and the KGB was too busy with other stuff to extract him. That's why he made up this childrens' story that the US promised not to expand NATO Eastward: misundertanding + whisful thinking + PTSD. https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-06-15/russia-putin-early-kgb-years-east-germany-helped-shape-him https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-06-15/russia...
rasz 2y ago
USSR didnt dissolve itself, it collapsed.