6 ms·

I wouldn't be surprised if a large part of the population support the coup. South America has a history of military dictatorship but after the pendulum swings

by dudus 2y ago

I wouldn't be surprised if a large part of the population support the coup. South America has a history of military dictatorship but after the pendulum swings enough to the other side people seem to lose their memory a bit.

silvestreh 2y ago
Most of them funded by the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor
- localfirst 2y ago
  Democratic governments and political parties, unions, student organizations, journalists, artists, teachers, intellectuals, opponents to the military juntas and left-wing sympathizers (including socialists, peronists, anarchists and communists) Crazy they just green lighted the whole segment of the population who were fighting for their own destiny.
- Aerbil313 2y ago
  Democracy doesn't work in a US-dominant world. My country is nowhere near Africa yet there have been 7 coup attemps, 4 successful, most backed by US in her 100 year history[2]. The last one didn't succeed and the US is currently protecting the leader of the attempt, refusing to give him us back. Arab leaders are likewise domestically widely regarded as sockpuppets of the USA. On the rare occasion a democratic election happens, the president suddenly dies, gets assasinated, or a coup d'état happens and gets hanged. Off the top of my head see [2] for an example. This is not to say democracy would work in a Russia- or China- dominant world. It seems democracy only works for the nations who can sufficiently defend against infiltration by the NSA/foreign intelligence agency of the dominant power. And I don't think that's easy, or feasible at all. You can't expect an African nation of 10M population who gained independence 2 decades ago to have the skilled people to be able to conduct this sort of intelligence operations. And of course, the US is the peacekeeper of the world, only bringing democracy and welfare to the poor nations held back by their authoritarian leaders and backward ideologies and religions. Long live Imperium Americana! 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Egyptian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Egyptian_coup_d%27%C3%A9t...
  - localfirst 2y ago
    im noticing lately that comments critical of America is routinely downvoted here. All of what you wrote holds true.
    - lottin 2y ago
      I think blaming the US every time a developing nation screws up is a little bit of a tired trope.
      - tumsfestival 2y ago
        This would be true if there wasn't a huge list of coup attempts in developing countries backed by the U.S. dating back almost a hundred years up until today. It's not a conspiracy, the U.S. has engaged and continues to engage in political interventions world over when they deem it necessary.
      - lenkite 2y ago
        Not a trope when its true and factual. Hell, ex-CIA directors have even admitted it in books and TV! Most Americans don't like hearing that their government can be one of the "bad guys".
    - xtracto 2y ago
      Lately? HN is a forum derived from an American company and promoting Silicon Valley culture. Most of the points of view of everything (not only politics) are strongly skewed towards American culture and beliefs. I would find it surprising if it was different .
      - tptacek 2y ago
        Roughly 10% of HN is in SFBA, 50% in US, and 30% in Europe. SFBA people are a small minority here. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40745850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40745850
        2y ago
seo-speedwagon 2y ago
Doesn’t look like it The unions declared an indefinite general strike https://x.com/redstreamnet/status/1806068831984783583 https://x.com/redstreamnet/status/1806068831984783583 And as I write this it seems like they’re outnumbered in the plaza https://x.com/KawsachunNews/status/1806083169726198113 https://x.com/KawsachunNews/status/1806083169726198113
pessimizer 2y ago
I wouldn't be surprised either, seeing as Arce has gone off-script as if he's been bought and paid for. He wasn't really elected himself, he was elected as a proxy for Morales who had been overthrown and exiled by a coup. He's followed that up with a complete break with Morales. What wouldn't surprise me even more is if this coup were staged to allow Arce the excuse to put the country into martial law before being voted out. ----- Evo Morales’ party expels President Luis Arce and deepens political war in Bolivia https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-10-05/evo-morales-party-expels-president-luis-arce-and-deepens-political-war-in-bolivia.html https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-10-05/evo-mora... In Bolivia, an “Intense” Battle Between Arce and Morales https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/in-bolivia-an-intense-battle-between-arce-and-morales/ https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/in-bolivia-an-inte...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- throw-the-towel 2y ago
  How exactly did Arce go off script?
  - pessimizer 2y ago
    Arce has not been a proxy for Morales, which is who people were actually voting for. That was the script.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
thiagoharry 2y ago
A significant part, perhaps. Latin America is very polarized. But apparently not the majority. Luiz Arce got the absolute majority of votes in the last election, which was organized precisely by the group that did the last coup and was against him and his political party.
- tptacek 2y ago
  Arce is the formal head of MAS, which is Morales' party. MAS won a fair election in 2020 after the "coup" in which Jeanine Anez assumed power after Morales fled the country along with the constitutional line of succession after widespread violent protests following an unprecedented 4th term election (which in turn followed his unprecedented 3rd term election, which in turn followed his unprecedented 2nd term election --- prior to Morales, successive terms were forbidden) that was broadly and, if you care what OAS says, officially deemed fraudulent. Anez, an unapologetic right-winger appointed by standard constitutional succession rules, promised elections, delivered them, and conceded power peacefully to her MAS successor, who almost immediately had her arrested and has imprisoned her ever since. This isn't so much my take as that of the European Parliament and Human Rights Watch.
  - thiagoharry 2y ago
    > if you care what OAS says, officially deemed fraudulent. I do not care. Later studies contradicted and criticized OAS conclusion. OAS was a player in the 2019 coup: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/02/26/bolivia-dismissed-its-october-elections-fraudulent-our-research-found-no-reason-suspect-fraud/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/02/26/bolivia-d... https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3621475 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3621475 > Anez, an unapologetic right-winger appointed by standard constitutional succession rules, What rules? She was not Evo Morales successor. The correct successors were being persecuted and had access denied to the government buildings. And during Anez illegitimate government, she used violence and the police to attack protesters and to persecute the opposition [1]. They tried to postpone the election, but they had no popular support and their coup was unsustainable. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkata_and_Sacaba_massacres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkata_and_Sacaba_massacres

by dudus 2y ago

silvestreh 2y ago

Most of them funded by the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor

localfirst 2y ago
Democratic governments and political parties, unions, student organizations, journalists, artists, teachers, intellectuals, opponents to the military juntas and left-wing sympathizers (including socialists, peronists, anarchists and communists) Crazy they just green lighted the whole segment of the population who were fighting for their own destiny.
Aerbil313 2y ago
Democracy doesn't work in a US-dominant world. My country is nowhere near Africa yet there have been 7 coup attemps, 4 successful, most backed by US in her 100 year history[2]. The last one didn't succeed and the US is currently protecting the leader of the attempt, refusing to give him us back. Arab leaders are likewise domestically widely regarded as sockpuppets of the USA. On the rare occasion a democratic election happens, the president suddenly dies, gets assasinated, or a coup d'état happens and gets hanged. Off the top of my head see [2] for an example. This is not to say democracy would work in a Russia- or China- dominant world. It seems democracy only works for the nations who can sufficiently defend against infiltration by the NSA/foreign intelligence agency of the dominant power. And I don't think that's easy, or feasible at all. You can't expect an African nation of 10M population who gained independence 2 decades ago to have the skilled people to be able to conduct this sort of intelligence operations. And of course, the US is the peacekeeper of the world, only bringing democracy and welfare to the poor nations held back by their authoritarian leaders and backward ideologies and religions. Long live Imperium Americana! 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Egyptian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Egyptian_coup_d%27%C3%A9t...
- localfirst 2y ago
  im noticing lately that comments critical of America is routinely downvoted here. All of what you wrote holds true.
  - lottin 2y ago
    I think blaming the US every time a developing nation screws up is a little bit of a tired trope.
    - tumsfestival 2y ago
      This would be true if there wasn't a huge list of coup attempts in developing countries backed by the U.S. dating back almost a hundred years up until today. It's not a conspiracy, the U.S. has engaged and continues to engage in political interventions world over when they deem it necessary.
    - lenkite 2y ago
      Not a trope when its true and factual. Hell, ex-CIA directors have even admitted it in books and TV! Most Americans don't like hearing that their government can be one of the "bad guys".
  - xtracto 2y ago
    Lately? HN is a forum derived from an American company and promoting Silicon Valley culture. Most of the points of view of everything (not only politics) are strongly skewed towards American culture and beliefs. I would find it surprising if it was different .
    - tptacek 2y ago
      Roughly 10% of HN is in SFBA, 50% in US, and 30% in Europe. SFBA people are a small minority here. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40745850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40745850
      - 2y ago

seo-speedwagon 2y ago

Doesn’t look like it The unions declared an indefinite general strike https://x.com/redstreamnet/status/1806068831984783583 https://x.com/redstreamnet/status/1806068831984783583 And as I write this it seems like they’re outnumbered in the plaza https://x.com/KawsachunNews/status/1806083169726198113 https://x.com/KawsachunNews/status/1806083169726198113

pessimizer 2y ago

I wouldn't be surprised either, seeing as Arce has gone off-script as if he's been bought and paid for. He wasn't really elected himself, he was elected as a proxy for Morales who had been overthrown and exiled by a coup. He's followed that up with a complete break with Morales. What wouldn't surprise me even more is if this coup were staged to allow Arce the excuse to put the country into martial law before being voted out. ----- Evo Morales’ party expels President Luis Arce and deepens political war in Bolivia https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-10-05/evo-morales-party-expels-president-luis-arce-and-deepens-political-war-in-bolivia.html https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-10-05/evo-mora... In Bolivia, an “Intense” Battle Between Arce and Morales https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/in-bolivia-an-intense-battle-between-arce-and-morales/ https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/in-bolivia-an-inte...

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
throw-the-towel 2y ago
How exactly did Arce go off script?
- pessimizer 2y ago
  Arce has not been a proxy for Morales, which is who people were actually voting for. That was the script.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

thiagoharry 2y ago

A significant part, perhaps. Latin America is very polarized. But apparently not the majority. Luiz Arce got the absolute majority of votes in the last election, which was organized precisely by the group that did the last coup and was against him and his political party.

tptacek 2y ago
Arce is the formal head of MAS, which is Morales' party. MAS won a fair election in 2020 after the "coup" in which Jeanine Anez assumed power after Morales fled the country along with the constitutional line of succession after widespread violent protests following an unprecedented 4th term election (which in turn followed his unprecedented 3rd term election, which in turn followed his unprecedented 2nd term election --- prior to Morales, successive terms were forbidden) that was broadly and, if you care what OAS says, officially deemed fraudulent. Anez, an unapologetic right-winger appointed by standard constitutional succession rules, promised elections, delivered them, and conceded power peacefully to her MAS successor, who almost immediately had her arrested and has imprisoned her ever since. This isn't so much my take as that of the European Parliament and Human Rights Watch.
- thiagoharry 2y ago
  > if you care what OAS says, officially deemed fraudulent. I do not care. Later studies contradicted and criticized OAS conclusion. OAS was a player in the 2019 coup: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/02/26/bolivia-dismissed-its-october-elections-fraudulent-our-research-found-no-reason-suspect-fraud/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/02/26/bolivia-d... https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3621475 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3621475 > Anez, an unapologetic right-winger appointed by standard constitutional succession rules, What rules? She was not Evo Morales successor. The correct successors were being persecuted and had access denied to the government buildings. And during Anez illegitimate government, she used violence and the police to attack protesters and to persecute the opposition [1]. They tried to postpone the election, but they had no popular support and their coup was unsustainable. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkata_and_Sacaba_massacres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkata_and_Sacaba_massacres