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Yep, there’s a reason we didn’t give Germany and Japan our “exceptional” electoral college system. Tech debt exists in constitutional law as well.

Dalewyn 2y ago
The Electoral College exists as a compromise regarding two needs: * The need to keep the Executive and Legislative Branches separate. * The need to represent States in a manner they already agree with, for sake of brevity. Thus the Electoral College: Composed in the same way as Congress is (plus pretending D.C. is a state) whose sole task is electing the head of the Executive Branch as representatives of the States thereof. Japan (and Germany? I don't know enough about German politics) is based on the UK's Westminster system, which has its own pros and cons and isn't necessarily better.
- vundercind 2y ago
  The idea of choosing wise locals to go judge the candidates and choose on our behalf (since a general election for president is kinda crazy—they were right about that) fell apart pretty much instantly when we started actually holding elections, making the institution all but pointless except for presenting opportunities to attack our democracy with weird procedural shit because it’s more complicated than it needs to be (see, ahem, certain recent events). We don’t need the College to weight the vote toward states without people in them, if that’s what we want to do. Even if we accept that that’s a good goal, the College is not a good way to do it.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    The thing is it's not the citizens of a State choosing the POTUS, it's the citizens of a State choosing which candidate their State will choose for POTUS. Remember, the US is a federation of sovereign States and POTUS as Chief Executive of the Federal government represents and is chosen by the States thereof. Each State represents its citizens respectively. The reason the College gives more weight to less populous States is, again, the need to represent States at the federal level in a way they already agree with but separated from the Legislature. So each State gets 2 Electors plus at least 1 Elector according to their population, representing the Senators and Representatives they would have in Congress. Remember that the Senate gives equal representation to all States regardless of population; California and Rhode Island each have the same representation in the Senate. Part of the reason Japan doesn't have an Electoral College is because they aren't as concerned about separating the Executive and Legislative Branches and they aren't a federation of sovereign States.
    - vundercind 2y ago
      The actual electors are basically pointless though. You can assign the electoral votes however the states decide to (some split it, et c) and that’s that. The rest is risky pageantry (and not even an entertaining sort!) and has been very nearly since day 1. The human electors have never really functioned like they were supposed to.
      - Dalewyn 2y ago
        I agree that the electors being actual people are mostly an artifact of a bygone era at this point. It's even illegal in most States for an elector to vote contrary to what the State's citizens decided. That being said though, Congress still has authority to act as a failsafe in the event the College deadlocks and Congressmen are most definitely actual people, so maybe there is some obscure value left in Electors likewise being actual people. In the interests of Chesterton's Fence and Not Fixing What Ain't Broke(tm), so long as the human nature doesn't become a significant problem it's probably not worth checking out the consequences of changing things around.
        comte7092 2y ago
        > That being said though, Congress still has authority to act as a failsafe The irony is that, as originally envisioned, what seems like a failsafe now was how they thought the election would be decided. The EC was just supposed to be a filter, the final election was Congress voting as state blocs. The framers didn’t see the party system coming though. > Not Fixing What Ain't Broke If there’s one thing that Americans can generally agree on, it’s that things are definitely broke, just maybe not the particular thing that is broken. Having too much rigidity in a system is how things end up collapsing out of nowhere. As stated in my prior comments, there’s actually been a significant amount of change and adaption in the constitutional order since 1789, it has just been implicitly down rather than explicitly so in the form of constitutional amendments.
    - comte7092 2y ago
      > Remember, the US is a federation of sovereign States and POTUS as Chief Executive of the Federal government represents and is chosen by the States thereof. Each State represents its citizens respectively. This isn’t even accurate from the perspective of 1789. The articles of confederation created a model akin to what you’ve outlined. The constitution created a quasi blend of popular representation and state level representation in the federal government as a result of several different compromises in order to form a stable national government. That isn’t how anything effectively works today though. The federal government has undergone numerous reforms both explicitly within the constitution and implicitly without any formal constitutional changes. These include the direct election of senators, income taxes, etc but also the effective binding of presidential electors to the outcome of the popular vote within a state. Americans today don’t think of themselves as citizens of the state of California, they think of themselves as Americans solely, the former concept being absolutely foreign and strange to them. Finally, the EC gives very little benefit to small states. The relative impact is consistently overstated. The only place that small state over representation effectively exists is in the senate.
- 0x5f3759df-i 2y ago
  You’re just making my point, it was a compromise for the time that no sane person would include in a country or constitution started from scratch today. There’s a reason no other country on earth uses such a ridiculous system. It is just tech debt we have to live with.
- comte7092 2y ago
  The “need” for the EC is all post hoc rationalization at this point. It was an expedient political compromise made in an environment that is wholly different than the one we live in today. The only reason we maintain it now is because it is both too hard to change and also perceived (correctly or incorrectly) to give an advantage to one of the two major parties in our political system, which effectively kills their support.

Dalewyn 2y ago

The Electoral College exists as a compromise regarding two needs: * The need to keep the Executive and Legislative Branches separate. * The need to represent States in a manner they already agree with, for sake of brevity. Thus the Electoral College: Composed in the same way as Congress is (plus pretending D.C. is a state) whose sole task is electing the head of the Executive Branch as representatives of the States thereof. Japan (and Germany? I don't know enough about German politics) is based on the UK's Westminster system, which has its own pros and cons and isn't necessarily better.

vundercind 2y ago
The idea of choosing wise locals to go judge the candidates and choose on our behalf (since a general election for president is kinda crazy—they were right about that) fell apart pretty much instantly when we started actually holding elections, making the institution all but pointless except for presenting opportunities to attack our democracy with weird procedural shit because it’s more complicated than it needs to be (see, ahem, certain recent events). We don’t need the College to weight the vote toward states without people in them, if that’s what we want to do. Even if we accept that that’s a good goal, the College is not a good way to do it.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  The thing is it's not the citizens of a State choosing the POTUS, it's the citizens of a State choosing which candidate their State will choose for POTUS. Remember, the US is a federation of sovereign States and POTUS as Chief Executive of the Federal government represents and is chosen by the States thereof. Each State represents its citizens respectively. The reason the College gives more weight to less populous States is, again, the need to represent States at the federal level in a way they already agree with but separated from the Legislature. So each State gets 2 Electors plus at least 1 Elector according to their population, representing the Senators and Representatives they would have in Congress. Remember that the Senate gives equal representation to all States regardless of population; California and Rhode Island each have the same representation in the Senate. Part of the reason Japan doesn't have an Electoral College is because they aren't as concerned about separating the Executive and Legislative Branches and they aren't a federation of sovereign States.
  - vundercind 2y ago
    The actual electors are basically pointless though. You can assign the electoral votes however the states decide to (some split it, et c) and that’s that. The rest is risky pageantry (and not even an entertaining sort!) and has been very nearly since day 1. The human electors have never really functioned like they were supposed to.
    - Dalewyn 2y ago
      I agree that the electors being actual people are mostly an artifact of a bygone era at this point. It's even illegal in most States for an elector to vote contrary to what the State's citizens decided. That being said though, Congress still has authority to act as a failsafe in the event the College deadlocks and Congressmen are most definitely actual people, so maybe there is some obscure value left in Electors likewise being actual people. In the interests of Chesterton's Fence and Not Fixing What Ain't Broke(tm), so long as the human nature doesn't become a significant problem it's probably not worth checking out the consequences of changing things around.
      - comte7092 2y ago
        > That being said though, Congress still has authority to act as a failsafe The irony is that, as originally envisioned, what seems like a failsafe now was how they thought the election would be decided. The EC was just supposed to be a filter, the final election was Congress voting as state blocs. The framers didn’t see the party system coming though. > Not Fixing What Ain't Broke If there’s one thing that Americans can generally agree on, it’s that things are definitely broke, just maybe not the particular thing that is broken. Having too much rigidity in a system is how things end up collapsing out of nowhere. As stated in my prior comments, there’s actually been a significant amount of change and adaption in the constitutional order since 1789, it has just been implicitly down rather than explicitly so in the form of constitutional amendments.
  - comte7092 2y ago
    > Remember, the US is a federation of sovereign States and POTUS as Chief Executive of the Federal government represents and is chosen by the States thereof. Each State represents its citizens respectively. This isn’t even accurate from the perspective of 1789. The articles of confederation created a model akin to what you’ve outlined. The constitution created a quasi blend of popular representation and state level representation in the federal government as a result of several different compromises in order to form a stable national government. That isn’t how anything effectively works today though. The federal government has undergone numerous reforms both explicitly within the constitution and implicitly without any formal constitutional changes. These include the direct election of senators, income taxes, etc but also the effective binding of presidential electors to the outcome of the popular vote within a state. Americans today don’t think of themselves as citizens of the state of California, they think of themselves as Americans solely, the former concept being absolutely foreign and strange to them. Finally, the EC gives very little benefit to small states. The relative impact is consistently overstated. The only place that small state over representation effectively exists is in the senate.
0x5f3759df-i 2y ago
You’re just making my point, it was a compromise for the time that no sane person would include in a country or constitution started from scratch today. There’s a reason no other country on earth uses such a ridiculous system. It is just tech debt we have to live with.
comte7092 2y ago
The “need” for the EC is all post hoc rationalization at this point. It was an expedient political compromise made in an environment that is wholly different than the one we live in today. The only reason we maintain it now is because it is both too hard to change and also perceived (correctly or incorrectly) to give an advantage to one of the two major parties in our political system, which effectively kills their support.