7 ms·

If Mac could simply play a greater percentage of my Steam library, I’d have no need for Windows.

by jmpman 2y ago

jonplackett 2y ago
It’s funny I wonder if MS do start to properly support Arm, it might have the opposite effect they want by forcing games makers to make arm versions, which can then be easily ported to the Mac…
- andrewmcwatters 2y ago
  We had the same phenomenon with x86-64 Mac OS X and macOS, but it didn't actually help. Their hardware was then, and still is chronically underpowered for current generation games. They build beautiful, but really slow hardware for their price point. They eventually deprecated OpenGL, and their then and now implementation is implemented as a wrapper around Metal. As a result, underlying OpenGL structures don't exist, and so you couldn't actually debug those games on Apple hardware. You had to resolve it on Windows PCs. Apple will never be serious about gaming, so it's just not ever worth the time.
- RodgerTheGreat 2y ago
  The challenges of porting games from Windows to MacOS have very little to do with processor architecture, and everything to do with system APIs. Valve's work with Proton seems like a much more plausible path toward unseating the dominance of Windows gaming, with the ironic consequence of solidifying the Windows APIs as a de-facto portable standard.
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    As people on forums are already lamenting, the most stable API for building Linux games, is Windows. In my mind; that is completely true and a serious indictment of the immaturity of Linux userspace.
    - rmgk 2y ago
      Does this not seem to rather imply that using the proton/windows APIs works well and is a good solution with many advantages? Is the large portion of windows/mac/linux productivity software that targets chromium/electron an indictment of the immaturity of windows/mac/linux?
- afavour 2y ago
  Nah, by that logic we would have seen that happen when Apple transitioned to Intel processors all those years ago. Never happened.
aftbit 2y ago
Same for Linux. I only use my Windows machine for gaming these days. I'd love to get rid of the second computer under my desk.
- ssl-3 2y ago
  I do most of my gaming with Steam, and have for a very long time. I also like running Linux, and have for an even longer time. For a fair number of years (6 or 7), I ran both Linux and Windows on the same hardware (my daily use desktop rig) using qemu and virtio tricks. That was a fun experiment that taught me a lot about virtualization. I did gaming and browsing on Windows, and more stodgy things with Linux (sometimes using an X server on Windows), and this met my goals. But a few months ago I dove in fairly deep and got Void running the hard way, with as little system-wide Poettering as possible, and started using that as a daily instead. I put Steam on there. Games, so far, Just Work. I don't know if they're running with a compatibility layer like Wine, or if they're native ports, or what. I mean, I can certainly find out -- but I don't really care enough about that when I'm in a mood for gaming. Maybe I am doing something wrong, but it seems fine.
  - Cu3PO42 2y ago
    Many games work fine on Linux, and if you don't care about competitive online games, it's probably most games. I play games almost exclusively with friends these days and they tend to be those games that don't work on Linux, so I'm stuck with a Windows Dual-Boot unfortunately. Or rather: I'd rather boot Windows and deal with it than miss out on those shared experiences.
    - ssl-3 2y ago
      You're right -- that does fit my selection of games pretty well, and does explain my "Works For Me" findings. What are some (modern, ish) online games that specifically are unlikely to work with what I'm doing?
      - Cu3PO42 2y ago
stetrain 2y ago
If Apple would work with Valve to support whatever they need for a Proton equivalent layer for Mac, that would be awesome. The current state is that a large chunk of the few steam games that have been ported to Mac were 32-bit and refuse to even run on newer macOS version.
- runjake 2y ago
  Apple has the Game Porting Toolkit, but adoption has been lackluster. https://developer.apple.com/games/game-porting-toolkit/ https://developer.apple.com/games/game-porting-toolkit/ https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/7/23752164/apple-mac-gaming-game-porting-toolkit-windows-games-macos https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/7/23752164/apple-mac-gaming-...
  - solardev 2y ago
    You don't have to wait for the game devs to adopt it, you can (try to) run any software using it: https://getwhisky.app/ https://getwhisky.app/ (free but poor support/compatibility) https://www.codeweavers.com/crossover https://www.codeweavers.com/crossover (paid app using similar technology, easier to use)
- jillesvangurp 2y ago
  They sort of have done some work except it's not aimed at enabling Valve to run a competing app store for games on macs for obvious reasons. It's called game porting toolkit. Allows game developers to easily port windows games to run on macs. Of course this is not about enabling Steam but about bypassing steam. But I'm guessing it's doing a lot of the same kinds of things as proton technically. Possibly even building on some of the same OSS components. I don't know enough about this to say definitively. The good news with 32 bit is that a lot of the 32 bit games are pretty old at this point and should run well enough in an emulator given good enough GPU emulation. So you might get something going with linux and proton running in an emulator. But of course, Valve has an opportunity here as well. And they should step up. There's a lot of good stuff happening in Asahi linux that they could borrow probably.
  - 2y ago
solardev 2y ago
I sold my Windows gaming desktop a few years ago and have been pretty happy with GeForce Now for AAA graphics-heavy games (it streams from a 4080 in the cloud) or Crossover/Whisky for indie/low-graphics titles. I've been surprised by the number of games I can play on one or the other. And Apple Silicon native games are slowly making an appearance on Steam too (but they usually run far better on GFN than local hardware).

If Mac could simply play a greater percentage of my Steam library, I’d have no need for Windows.

by jmpman 2y ago

If Mac could simply play a greater percentage of my Steam library, I’d have no need for Windows.

It’s funny I wonder if MS do start to properly support Arm, it might have the opposite effect they want by forcing games makers to make arm versions, which can then be easily ported to the Mac…

andrewmcwatters 2y ago
We had the same phenomenon with x86-64 Mac OS X and macOS, but it didn't actually help. Their hardware was then, and still is chronically underpowered for current generation games. They build beautiful, but really slow hardware for their price point. They eventually deprecated OpenGL, and their then and now implementation is implemented as a wrapper around Metal. As a result, underlying OpenGL structures don't exist, and so you couldn't actually debug those games on Apple hardware. You had to resolve it on Windows PCs. Apple will never be serious about gaming, so it's just not ever worth the time.
RodgerTheGreat 2y ago
The challenges of porting games from Windows to MacOS have very little to do with processor architecture, and everything to do with system APIs. Valve's work with Proton seems like a much more plausible path toward unseating the dominance of Windows gaming, with the ironic consequence of solidifying the Windows APIs as a de-facto portable standard.
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  As people on forums are already lamenting, the most stable API for building Linux games, is Windows. In my mind; that is completely true and a serious indictment of the immaturity of Linux userspace.
  - rmgk 2y ago
    Does this not seem to rather imply that using the proton/windows APIs works well and is a good solution with many advantages? Is the large portion of windows/mac/linux productivity software that targets chromium/electron an indictment of the immaturity of windows/mac/linux?
afavour 2y ago
Nah, by that logic we would have seen that happen when Apple transitioned to Intel processors all those years ago. Never happened.

aftbit 2y ago

Same for Linux. I only use my Windows machine for gaming these days. I'd love to get rid of the second computer under my desk.

ssl-3 2y ago
I do most of my gaming with Steam, and have for a very long time. I also like running Linux, and have for an even longer time. For a fair number of years (6 or 7), I ran both Linux and Windows on the same hardware (my daily use desktop rig) using qemu and virtio tricks. That was a fun experiment that taught me a lot about virtualization. I did gaming and browsing on Windows, and more stodgy things with Linux (sometimes using an X server on Windows), and this met my goals. But a few months ago I dove in fairly deep and got Void running the hard way, with as little system-wide Poettering as possible, and started using that as a daily instead. I put Steam on there. Games, so far, Just Work. I don't know if they're running with a compatibility layer like Wine, or if they're native ports, or what. I mean, I can certainly find out -- but I don't really care enough about that when I'm in a mood for gaming. Maybe I am doing something wrong, but it seems fine.
- Cu3PO42 2y ago
  Many games work fine on Linux, and if you don't care about competitive online games, it's probably most games. I play games almost exclusively with friends these days and they tend to be those games that don't work on Linux, so I'm stuck with a Windows Dual-Boot unfortunately. Or rather: I'd rather boot Windows and deal with it than miss out on those shared experiences.
  - ssl-3 2y ago
    You're right -- that does fit my selection of games pretty well, and does explain my "Works For Me" findings. What are some (modern, ish) online games that specifically are unlikely to work with what I'm doing?
    - Cu3PO42 2y ago

stetrain 2y ago

If Apple would work with Valve to support whatever they need for a Proton equivalent layer for Mac, that would be awesome. The current state is that a large chunk of the few steam games that have been ported to Mac were 32-bit and refuse to even run on newer macOS version.

runjake 2y ago
Apple has the Game Porting Toolkit, but adoption has been lackluster. https://developer.apple.com/games/game-porting-toolkit/ https://developer.apple.com/games/game-porting-toolkit/ https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/7/23752164/apple-mac-gaming-game-porting-toolkit-windows-games-macos https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/7/23752164/apple-mac-gaming-...
- solardev 2y ago
  You don't have to wait for the game devs to adopt it, you can (try to) run any software using it: https://getwhisky.app/ https://getwhisky.app/ (free but poor support/compatibility) https://www.codeweavers.com/crossover https://www.codeweavers.com/crossover (paid app using similar technology, easier to use)
jillesvangurp 2y ago
They sort of have done some work except it's not aimed at enabling Valve to run a competing app store for games on macs for obvious reasons. It's called game porting toolkit. Allows game developers to easily port windows games to run on macs. Of course this is not about enabling Steam but about bypassing steam. But I'm guessing it's doing a lot of the same kinds of things as proton technically. Possibly even building on some of the same OSS components. I don't know enough about this to say definitively. The good news with 32 bit is that a lot of the 32 bit games are pretty old at this point and should run well enough in an emulator given good enough GPU emulation. So you might get something going with linux and proton running in an emulator. But of course, Valve has an opportunity here as well. And they should step up. There's a lot of good stuff happening in Asahi linux that they could borrow probably.
- 2y ago

solardev 2y ago

I sold my Windows gaming desktop a few years ago and have been pretty happy with GeForce Now for AAA graphics-heavy games (it streams from a 4080 in the cloud) or Crossover/Whisky for indie/low-graphics titles. I've been surprised by the number of games I can play on one or the other. And Apple Silicon native games are slowly making an appearance on Steam too (but they usually run far better on GFN than local hardware).