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There is no German national security without European national security. Everything revolves around NATO and deepening military partnerships with neighbours (e.

There is no German national security without European national security. Everything revolves around NATO and deepening military partnerships with neighbours (e.g. Germany and the Netherlands have a bunch of shared, integrated units). There is no EU military, but there are mutual defense pacts, and the development of a real EU military is something that is being pushed for by Germany.

firesteelrain 2y ago
"Everything revolves around NATO and deepening military partnerships with neighbours (e.g. Germany and the Netherlands have a bunch of shared, integrated units). here is no EU military, but there are mutual defense pacts, and the development of a real EU military is something that is being pushed for by Germany." That sounds counter to what you said above "reduces their dependence on fossil fuels from Russia, the USA and the middle east, shifting those dependencies from rivals to their closest allies" The US is one of their closest allies. It appears you are conflicting yourself.
- eigenspace 2y ago
  Yes, the USA is one of Germany's closest allies, but the reliablity of that partnership is now being put into question due to the USA's increasing protectionism (on both the left and right), and people's concerns about the potential of a second Donald Trump term (or someone Trump-like). Because of this, EU countries are working rather hard to try and insulate themselves from potential changes in their relationship with the USA (hence the big focus on an EU military and strategic autonomy).
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    I mean, you put the US in the list with Russia and the Middle East. I suspect it was either unintentional or a bit of rhetorical flair, but that’s not a list we belong in, haha. I get it, as I responded in the other comment the Germany and their EU partners share a fate. It’s definitely closer than EU/US. But the US/EU relationship is more like friendly competition than rivalry.
    - eigenspace 2y ago
      The reason I put the USA in that bucket is not because I thought the USA is some enemy of Germany or the EU. I put it in that list because the USA *is* a country that the EU needs to worry about withholding vital trade for its own political gain. Because of that, it is a national security risk for EU countries to rely on the USA for critical energy inputs, in the same way as it is a national security risk for the EU to rely on Russia or the Middle East for energy inputs, in a way that just isn't true of fellow EU or EEA countries.
- bee_rider 2y ago
  The EU isn’t a country but they are basically a unit of national security, if they don’t defend each other the whole project will fail. Putting the US in the list of rivals is a bit of a silly rhetorical flair I think. We aren’t rivals. We are close allies. But the EU as a whole is a friendly competitor to the US. Germany has a shared destiny with their EU partners. The US, we’re very close allies to Germany and the EU. But we aren’t conjoined.

firesteelrain 2y ago

"Everything revolves around NATO and deepening military partnerships with neighbours (e.g. Germany and the Netherlands have a bunch of shared, integrated units). here is no EU military, but there are mutual defense pacts, and the development of a real EU military is something that is being pushed for by Germany." That sounds counter to what you said above "reduces their dependence on fossil fuels from Russia, the USA and the middle east, shifting those dependencies from rivals to their closest allies" The US is one of their closest allies. It appears you are conflicting yourself.

eigenspace 2y ago
Yes, the USA is one of Germany's closest allies, but the reliablity of that partnership is now being put into question due to the USA's increasing protectionism (on both the left and right), and people's concerns about the potential of a second Donald Trump term (or someone Trump-like). Because of this, EU countries are working rather hard to try and insulate themselves from potential changes in their relationship with the USA (hence the big focus on an EU military and strategic autonomy).
- bee_rider 2y ago
  I mean, you put the US in the list with Russia and the Middle East. I suspect it was either unintentional or a bit of rhetorical flair, but that’s not a list we belong in, haha. I get it, as I responded in the other comment the Germany and their EU partners share a fate. It’s definitely closer than EU/US. But the US/EU relationship is more like friendly competition than rivalry.
  - eigenspace 2y ago
    The reason I put the USA in that bucket is not because I thought the USA is some enemy of Germany or the EU. I put it in that list because the USA *is* a country that the EU needs to worry about withholding vital trade for its own political gain. Because of that, it is a national security risk for EU countries to rely on the USA for critical energy inputs, in the same way as it is a national security risk for the EU to rely on Russia or the Middle East for energy inputs, in a way that just isn't true of fellow EU or EEA countries.
bee_rider 2y ago
The EU isn’t a country but they are basically a unit of national security, if they don’t defend each other the whole project will fail. Putting the US in the list of rivals is a bit of a silly rhetorical flair I think. We aren’t rivals. We are close allies. But the EU as a whole is a friendly competitor to the US. Germany has a shared destiny with their EU partners. The US, we’re very close allies to Germany and the EU. But we aren’t conjoined.