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The nuclear exit was a stupid idea, but how bad it was its also overstated a lot by pro-nuclear types and understated a lot by anti-nuclear types. Germany has

The nuclear exit was a stupid idea, but how bad it was its also overstated a lot by pro-nuclear types and understated a lot by anti-nuclear types. Germany has built a tremendous amount of solar and wind in the past few years, but the amount of energy they're generating is exaggerated a lot when one talks about percentages. In reality, over the past 5 or so years as the last of the nuclear reactors were decommissioned and solar/wind installations have ramped up, the total amount of electricity produced in Germany has decreased, and Germany has moved from on average being an electricity exporter to being an electricity importer. The reduction in total electrical power generated in Germany is about equal to the power lost from nuclear reactors, while the reductions in fossil fuels was more or less balanced by the increase in renewables. This is pretty promising, and in my opinion, it's actually somewhat good that Germany is a net electricity importer rather than exporter. They shouldn't be selling power generated with coal when they could be buying power generated with nuclear (France) or hydroelectric (Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, Austria).

firesteelrain 2y ago
> it's actually somewhat good that Germany is a net electricity importer rather than exporter. Not from a national security perspective.
- loire280 2y ago
  Post WWII, interdependence between European nations has generally been considered good for national security.
  - throw0101c 2y ago
    > Post WWII, interdependence between European nations has generally been considered good for national security. Except that Germany was importing energy from the Soviet Union since (at least) the 1980s: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urengoy–Pomary–Uzhhorod_pipeline#Controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urengoy–Pomary–Uzhhorod_pipeli... and then Russia. Was that good for national security?
- eigenspace 2y ago
  That's actually false. Germany increasing their ability to import electricity from their neighbouring european countries is good for their national security, because it reduces their dependence on fossil fuels from Russia, the USA and the middle east, shifting those dependencies from rivals to their closest allies, and members of the same super-state union. The more electrified Europe becomes, the less reliant they are on fuels imported from rivals outside the EU. Besides, climate change is *also* a gigantic national security risk, more pressing than any regional rivalry.
  - firesteelrain 2y ago
    > climate change is also a gigantic national security risk, more pressing than any regional rivalry. Then, they should not have gotten rid of Nuclear because it's way more efficient than Wind and Solar. No need to give up arable land either to put in giant solar and wind farms.
    - eigenspace 2y ago
      As I said, the decommissioning of the Nuclear reactors was a stupid idea. My point above was that people who feel they must be "team nuclear" often like to overstate how stupid it was with comments like yours.
      - firesteelrain 2y ago
        > how stupid it was with comments like yours Why ad hominem attacks? I didn't do it to you.
        eigenspace 2y ago
        I didn't call you or your comment stupid. I said that you are making Germany's stupid decision to decommission their nuclear reactors sound worse than it actually is.
  - firesteelrain 2y ago
    > Germany increasing their ability to import electricity from their neighbouring european countries is good for their national security, because it reduces their dependence on fossil fuels from Russia National security != Europe security. There is no European Military. It's a loose confederation each with their own borders. Its not like the US.
- locallost 2y ago
  Germany has I think around 80GW of capacity in coal plants so it can cover its own needs just from that if push came to shove. In terms of national security, nuclear plants are their own security risk, as evidenced in the Ukraine now.
  - firesteelrain 2y ago
    > In terms of national security, nuclear plants are their own security risk, as evidenced in the Ukraine now. Non-diverse, import leaning energy is a security risk.
- bee_rider 2y ago
  Depends on where from. Importing from other EU countries just reinforces their union, which includes mutual self defense.
  - firesteelrain 2y ago
    Importing isn't bad in of itself. When a country leans towards relying on another country for energy, then that is generally accepted to be negative towards national security.
    - bee_rider 2y ago
      I don’t think general observations apply in the usual case of extremely close and geographically nearby alliances like the EU. Importing from other EU members has no national security implication because their national security fate is conjoined anyway. Similarly trade between the US and Canada, there’s no future in which we fight each other or don’t fight together in any serious war (Canada even comes along for our bullshit bad idea wars most of the time).
Herz 2y ago
> it's actually somewhat good that Germany is a net electricity importer rather than exporter. Considering the enormous variability and unpredictability of the German market, this doesn't seem like a big deal. In this regard, Sweden has refused to build a new energy connection. "We can't connect southern Sweden, which has a large deficit in electricity production, with Germany, where the electricity market today does not function efficiently," Energy Minister Ebba Busch said in a statement. "That would risk leading to higher prices and a more unstable electricity market in Sweden," she said. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/swedish-government-says-no-new-power-cable-germany-2024-06-14/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/swedish-government-s... https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=DE-LU&auction=MRC&trading_date=2024-06-25&delivery_date=2024-06-26&underlying_year=&modality=Auction&sub_modality=DayAhead&technology=&data_mode=table&period=&production_period= https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=DE-LU&au...

firesteelrain 2y ago

> it's actually somewhat good that Germany is a net electricity importer rather than exporter. Not from a national security perspective.

loire280 2y ago
Post WWII, interdependence between European nations has generally been considered good for national security.
- throw0101c 2y ago
  > Post WWII, interdependence between European nations has generally been considered good for national security. Except that Germany was importing energy from the Soviet Union since (at least) the 1980s: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urengoy–Pomary–Uzhhorod_pipeline#Controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urengoy–Pomary–Uzhhorod_pipeli... and then Russia. Was that good for national security?
eigenspace 2y ago
That's actually false. Germany increasing their ability to import electricity from their neighbouring european countries is good for their national security, because it reduces their dependence on fossil fuels from Russia, the USA and the middle east, shifting those dependencies from rivals to their closest allies, and members of the same super-state union. The more electrified Europe becomes, the less reliant they are on fuels imported from rivals outside the EU. Besides, climate change is *also* a gigantic national security risk, more pressing than any regional rivalry.
- firesteelrain 2y ago
  > climate change is also a gigantic national security risk, more pressing than any regional rivalry. Then, they should not have gotten rid of Nuclear because it's way more efficient than Wind and Solar. No need to give up arable land either to put in giant solar and wind farms.
  - eigenspace 2y ago
    As I said, the decommissioning of the Nuclear reactors was a stupid idea. My point above was that people who feel they must be "team nuclear" often like to overstate how stupid it was with comments like yours.
    - firesteelrain 2y ago
      > how stupid it was with comments like yours Why ad hominem attacks? I didn't do it to you.
      - eigenspace 2y ago
        I didn't call you or your comment stupid. I said that you are making Germany's stupid decision to decommission their nuclear reactors sound worse than it actually is.
- firesteelrain 2y ago
  > Germany increasing their ability to import electricity from their neighbouring european countries is good for their national security, because it reduces their dependence on fossil fuels from Russia National security != Europe security. There is no European Military. It's a loose confederation each with their own borders. Its not like the US.
locallost 2y ago
Germany has I think around 80GW of capacity in coal plants so it can cover its own needs just from that if push came to shove. In terms of national security, nuclear plants are their own security risk, as evidenced in the Ukraine now.
- firesteelrain 2y ago
  > In terms of national security, nuclear plants are their own security risk, as evidenced in the Ukraine now. Non-diverse, import leaning energy is a security risk.
bee_rider 2y ago
Depends on where from. Importing from other EU countries just reinforces their union, which includes mutual self defense.
- firesteelrain 2y ago
  Importing isn't bad in of itself. When a country leans towards relying on another country for energy, then that is generally accepted to be negative towards national security.
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    I don’t think general observations apply in the usual case of extremely close and geographically nearby alliances like the EU. Importing from other EU members has no national security implication because their national security fate is conjoined anyway. Similarly trade between the US and Canada, there’s no future in which we fight each other or don’t fight together in any serious war (Canada even comes along for our bullshit bad idea wars most of the time).

Herz 2y ago

> it's actually somewhat good that Germany is a net electricity importer rather than exporter. Considering the enormous variability and unpredictability of the German market, this doesn't seem like a big deal. In this regard, Sweden has refused to build a new energy connection. "We can't connect southern Sweden, which has a large deficit in electricity production, with Germany, where the electricity market today does not function efficiently," Energy Minister Ebba Busch said in a statement. "That would risk leading to higher prices and a more unstable electricity market in Sweden," she said. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/swedish-government-says-no-new-power-cable-germany-2024-06-14/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/swedish-government-s... https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=DE-LU&auction=MRC&trading_date=2024-06-25&delivery_date=2024-06-26&underlying_year=&modality=Auction&sub_modality=DayAhead&technology=&data_mode=table&period=&production_period= https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=DE-LU&au...