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There's no explanation of what Nickel is. Even if I click the link, I get: >Better configuration for less >Write complex configurations. Modular, correct and

There's no explanation of what Nickel is. Even if I click the link, I get: >Better configuration for less >Write complex configurations. Modular, correct and boilerplate-free. I still don't get what this is. Configuration for what? Is this an alternative to TOML/YAML? From clicking three or four links deep into the Nickel documentation, I finally found an explanation that Nickel is a language for generating configuration files like YAML or TOML. Either I'm super out of the loop or the authors need to do a better job of explaining what Nickel is from the beginning.

anon291 2y ago
Nickel is a replacement for the Nix programming language
yagrouze 2y ago
(disclaimer: Nickel dev) Thanks for the feedback. It sounded obvious to me, but I reckon that after looking at the website again, it's never spelled explicitly really on the front page. Nickel is a domain-specific programming language for configuration. Similar to CUE, Dhall, Pkl, Jsonnet or the Nix language. With typing and validation capabilities built in. I like to think of it as "configuration templating done the right way". While it originally targeted Nix in particular, it's a standalone config language that can be used to generate YAML or the like for e.g. Terraform, Kubernetes or anything where using pure YAML (or ugly unplanned semi-programming languages disguising as YAML) isn't enough.
- mtlynch 2y ago
  Cool, thanks for the additional context! As someone who is a Nix beginner and struggles with the language, I'd love to see an alternative that's easier to use. Is Nickel at the point where it is a viable alternative for Nix than the Nix language? Is there any documentation about configuring Nix with Nickel?
  - viraptor 2y ago
    If you don't like the Nix language, you're unlikely to like Nickel - they're very similar.
    - yagrouze 2y ago
      I wouldn't say they are very similar. Nix is a fairly barebone functional language, so it does embed fairly straightforwardly into other functional languages (including Nickel, but it's true for Haskell, OCaml, Dhall, Jsonnet, Scala, etc. as well - forgetting about Nix-specific builtins, as long as you have higher-order functions, records and arrays, you have the Nix core). However, Nickel adds pattern matching and destructuring, reverse application, types, contracts and merging, which I think does lead to a quite different experience in practice. It's a bit like saying that C is similar to Rust (ok, so the analogy doesn't work as well for Rust as most C would be unsafe on non-idiomatic Rust) or C++: in some sense, yes, but developing in those languages is very very different.
    - k_bx 2y ago
      In Nix, I've found that the biggest problem is not the language but the lack of easy introspection. Which keys are present in the struct I'm looking at? What are all the symbols in point X? Etc. It felt like an "ok to read but hard to write" language. I think it's resolved by a proper IDE and runtime-inspection of some kind.
    - pxc 2y ago
      I would weaken and expand this a bit. 1. If you like Nix, you'll probably like Nickel, too. 2. If you use Nix enough that there are enough specific things you hate about it to comprise a wishlist, you might be extra excited about Nickel for checking some of those boxes. 3. If you looked at Nix code for 5 minutes and instantly bounced off it because it seemed alien and unpleasant, Nickel might give you similar feelings. I think (3) often resolves itself with experience, so it's potentially worth coming back to Nix or Nickel in a more patient and curious mode, if you've had that reaction.
  - yagrouze 2y ago
    I think the answer is yes and no. As a language (and as far as tooling is involved), I think Nickel is entirely suitable to fill the same role as the Nix language (maybe at the same scale as Nixpkgs the performance will need some work, but that's it). Unfortunately, being a Nix replacement involves much more than just being a good language for configuration. It requires to interact tightly with all the existing Nix code that has been produced (basically, Nixpkgs). This is the hard part, which isn't there yet. Some design document that was started a long time ago can give you more details: https://github.com/tweag/nickel/pull/693 https://github.com/tweag/nickel/pull/693. The best current take is organist (https://github.com/nickel-lang/organist https://github.com/nickel-lang/organist), which is much more limited in scope (basically development shell), but has some form of interaction with Nix and Nixpkgs, albeit limited. I think the recent development around json-schema-to-nickel and the availability of JSON schemas for NixOS modules (as mentioned at the end of the post) might make it realistic to write boring NixOS configs in Nickel (and have the nice in-LSP validation), but we haven't had the time to try this combination yet.
- progbits 2y ago
  Is this by any chance reference to the nickel (NCL) config language at google? Otherwise a fun naming coincidence. Fun story, google had a ton of GCL configs (author of CUE worked on GCL) which has certain unfortunate semantics that can't be fixed without breaking compatibility. NCL was designed to address those but of course automated migration wasn't possible due to tricky semantical differences. There was a big push to move to NCL but it failed just due to sheer size of GCL codebase and was abandoned and rolled back, and NCL was deprecated. Unfortunately some new tools already picked up NCL and then had too much code to go back. So to this day most configs are GCL but there is one tool that remains on NCL.
  - pxc 2y ago
    I've always imagine the name came from a thought like > If I had a nickel for every time someone said 'Nix would be perfect if only it had a good type system...', I'd buy a better configuration language! but I completely made that up in my own head :)
  - yagrouze 2y ago
    Actually we learned about Google's NCL way after, when discussing with CUE's author, that we happen to know as well. So it's a funny coincidence. Nickel originated from NCL which is both a recursive acronym (Nickel Configuration Language), but also came from the ambition of improving Nix: it also meant, at least initially, Nix Configuration Language, I believe. Maybe there's been a wordplay around Nickel <-> cheap configuration language as well. We also co-organize CONFLANG (https://2023.splashcon.org/home/conflang-2023 https://2023.splashcon.org/home/conflang-2023) with CUE's author and other people, and we got several subscriptions and talks from Google last year. This is available here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbEkN8OOQFQ&t=23367s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbEkN8OOQFQ&t=23367s. I you look at the first comment, all talks are indexed, and there is in particular an experience report on improving GCL incrementally without breaking anything at Google (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbEkN8OOQFQ&t=23367s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbEkN8OOQFQ&t=23367s). Very interesting!
    - progbits 2y ago
      Thanks for the comprehensive reply. The resources you linked look great, I'm putting that on top of my watch list. YAML is the bane of my existence and I daydream about building a purely declarative system for running services with a sane config language (CUE or Pkl mostly). But then reality comes back and I have to spend another hour adding nindent to text based yaml templates...
wrasee 2y ago
Same. It was only when I got to reading the user manual that I see what I feel could be the first sentence of their website > Nickel is a generic configuration language. > Its purpose is to automate the generation of static configuration files - think JSON, YAML, XML, or your favorite data representation language - that are then fed to another system. It is designed to have a simple, well-understood core: it is in essence JSON with functions. https://nickel-lang.org/user-manual/introduction/ https://nickel-lang.org/user-manual/introduction/
oldpersonintx 2y ago
[dead]

anon291 2y ago

Nickel is a replacement for the Nix programming language

yagrouze 2y ago

(disclaimer: Nickel dev) Thanks for the feedback. It sounded obvious to me, but I reckon that after looking at the website again, it's never spelled explicitly really on the front page. Nickel is a domain-specific programming language for configuration. Similar to CUE, Dhall, Pkl, Jsonnet or the Nix language. With typing and validation capabilities built in. I like to think of it as "configuration templating done the right way". While it originally targeted Nix in particular, it's a standalone config language that can be used to generate YAML or the like for e.g. Terraform, Kubernetes or anything where using pure YAML (or ugly unplanned semi-programming languages disguising as YAML) isn't enough.

mtlynch 2y ago
Cool, thanks for the additional context! As someone who is a Nix beginner and struggles with the language, I'd love to see an alternative that's easier to use. Is Nickel at the point where it is a viable alternative for Nix than the Nix language? Is there any documentation about configuring Nix with Nickel?
- viraptor 2y ago
  If you don't like the Nix language, you're unlikely to like Nickel - they're very similar.
  - yagrouze 2y ago
    I wouldn't say they are very similar. Nix is a fairly barebone functional language, so it does embed fairly straightforwardly into other functional languages (including Nickel, but it's true for Haskell, OCaml, Dhall, Jsonnet, Scala, etc. as well - forgetting about Nix-specific builtins, as long as you have higher-order functions, records and arrays, you have the Nix core). However, Nickel adds pattern matching and destructuring, reverse application, types, contracts and merging, which I think does lead to a quite different experience in practice. It's a bit like saying that C is similar to Rust (ok, so the analogy doesn't work as well for Rust as most C would be unsafe on non-idiomatic Rust) or C++: in some sense, yes, but developing in those languages is very very different.
  - k_bx 2y ago
    In Nix, I've found that the biggest problem is not the language but the lack of easy introspection. Which keys are present in the struct I'm looking at? What are all the symbols in point X? Etc. It felt like an "ok to read but hard to write" language. I think it's resolved by a proper IDE and runtime-inspection of some kind.
  - pxc 2y ago
    I would weaken and expand this a bit. 1. If you like Nix, you'll probably like Nickel, too. 2. If you use Nix enough that there are enough specific things you hate about it to comprise a wishlist, you might be extra excited about Nickel for checking some of those boxes. 3. If you looked at Nix code for 5 minutes and instantly bounced off it because it seemed alien and unpleasant, Nickel might give you similar feelings. I think (3) often resolves itself with experience, so it's potentially worth coming back to Nix or Nickel in a more patient and curious mode, if you've had that reaction.
- yagrouze 2y ago
  I think the answer is yes and no. As a language (and as far as tooling is involved), I think Nickel is entirely suitable to fill the same role as the Nix language (maybe at the same scale as Nixpkgs the performance will need some work, but that's it). Unfortunately, being a Nix replacement involves much more than just being a good language for configuration. It requires to interact tightly with all the existing Nix code that has been produced (basically, Nixpkgs). This is the hard part, which isn't there yet. Some design document that was started a long time ago can give you more details: https://github.com/tweag/nickel/pull/693 https://github.com/tweag/nickel/pull/693. The best current take is organist (https://github.com/nickel-lang/organist https://github.com/nickel-lang/organist), which is much more limited in scope (basically development shell), but has some form of interaction with Nix and Nixpkgs, albeit limited. I think the recent development around json-schema-to-nickel and the availability of JSON schemas for NixOS modules (as mentioned at the end of the post) might make it realistic to write boring NixOS configs in Nickel (and have the nice in-LSP validation), but we haven't had the time to try this combination yet.
progbits 2y ago
Is this by any chance reference to the nickel (NCL) config language at google? Otherwise a fun naming coincidence. Fun story, google had a ton of GCL configs (author of CUE worked on GCL) which has certain unfortunate semantics that can't be fixed without breaking compatibility. NCL was designed to address those but of course automated migration wasn't possible due to tricky semantical differences. There was a big push to move to NCL but it failed just due to sheer size of GCL codebase and was abandoned and rolled back, and NCL was deprecated. Unfortunately some new tools already picked up NCL and then had too much code to go back. So to this day most configs are GCL but there is one tool that remains on NCL.
- pxc 2y ago
  I've always imagine the name came from a thought like > If I had a nickel for every time someone said 'Nix would be perfect if only it had a good type system...', I'd buy a better configuration language! but I completely made that up in my own head :)
- yagrouze 2y ago
  Actually we learned about Google's NCL way after, when discussing with CUE's author, that we happen to know as well. So it's a funny coincidence. Nickel originated from NCL which is both a recursive acronym (Nickel Configuration Language), but also came from the ambition of improving Nix: it also meant, at least initially, Nix Configuration Language, I believe. Maybe there's been a wordplay around Nickel <-> cheap configuration language as well. We also co-organize CONFLANG (https://2023.splashcon.org/home/conflang-2023 https://2023.splashcon.org/home/conflang-2023) with CUE's author and other people, and we got several subscriptions and talks from Google last year. This is available here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbEkN8OOQFQ&t=23367s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbEkN8OOQFQ&t=23367s. I you look at the first comment, all talks are indexed, and there is in particular an experience report on improving GCL incrementally without breaking anything at Google (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbEkN8OOQFQ&t=23367s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbEkN8OOQFQ&t=23367s). Very interesting!
  - progbits 2y ago
    Thanks for the comprehensive reply. The resources you linked look great, I'm putting that on top of my watch list. YAML is the bane of my existence and I daydream about building a purely declarative system for running services with a sane config language (CUE or Pkl mostly). But then reality comes back and I have to spend another hour adding nindent to text based yaml templates...

wrasee 2y ago

Same. It was only when I got to reading the user manual that I see what I feel could be the first sentence of their website > Nickel is a generic configuration language. > Its purpose is to automate the generation of static configuration files - think JSON, YAML, XML, or your favorite data representation language - that are then fed to another system. It is designed to have a simple, well-understood core: it is in essence JSON with functions. https://nickel-lang.org/user-manual/introduction/ https://nickel-lang.org/user-manual/introduction/

oldpersonintx 2y ago

[dead]