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I was recently arguing with a German who thought burning coal was completely fine as long as you were burning less than you used to. He didn’t see the reason fo

I was recently arguing with a German who thought burning coal was completely fine as long as you were burning less than you used to. He didn’t see the reason for nuclear at all.

josefx 2y ago
Meanwhile we had significant protests over the ever expanding surface mines feeding those coal plants.
ernst_klim 2y ago
What do they think about paying much higher electricity bills than in most other EU countries? https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Electricity_price_statistics#Electricity_prices_for_household_consumers https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...
- croes 2y ago
  This wouldn't change with nuclear energy because the price is bound to the most energy source. There is a reason the energy companies still keep coal power plants. Without the price and profit would go down.
- geff82 2y ago
  Aside effects of the Ukraine war, it feels like the bill people actually pay has not risen too much in recent years. Germans famously do not have air conditioning in their homes and most switched all the lights to LEDs, leading to substantial bill reductions in many cases. Electricity for cars or for heating can be obtained at about 25% lower prices and modern houses are, in general, quite energy efficient. So I'd say that the high energy prices are hindering the construction of new factories/keeping the old ones (which can turn out to have bad effects soon), but everyday life is not too much bothered by them.
- PinguTS 2y ago
  While that covers only the second half of 2023, the prices since then have come down significantly. Germany was never cheap, it was and is still in the top 5. What you also need to consider in those charts, what is the average salary. While it is comparable to Italy, take a closer look to Hungary how expansive it is there. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1267500/eu-monthly-wholesale-electricity-price-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1267500/eu-monthly-whole...
  - ernst_klim 2y ago
    Yes, but I pay 34Cents for electricity in Germany, and my friend in Netherlands pays 24-26Cents. That's a huge deal. > what is the average salary Norway, Finland, Netherlands are still much cheaper and they are rich.
    - PinguTS 2y ago
      I can get from 25 cent/kWh (Elektrizität Berlin) to 39 cent/kWh (N-Ergie). It is what you choose.
    - aleph_minus_one 2y ago
      > Norway, Finland, Netherlands are still much cheaper and they are rich. Norway has the terrain for building hydroelectric power plants.
      - ernst_klim 2y ago
        And Finland has nuclear energy, which covers 33% of its energy needs. And so could Germany.
- NikkiA 2y ago
  That's almost certainly just a benefit of brexit, if we were still in the EU we'd be paying the highest, without any competition.
croes 2y ago
Which company would you trust to build and operate an nuclear power plant without putting profit over security?
- criley2 2y ago
  Any of them? Coal is far more dangerous to human health and life than nuclear. Pick your quasi-legitimate source, but they all agree that coal is ~10X more deadly than nuclear. > Coal-fired energy chains are estimated to cause 12 times more deaths per gigawatt-ampere-year than nuclear energy chains, and coal is estimated to cause 820% more deaths per terawatt-hour of electricity produced than nuclear
  - croes 2y ago
    Who said the choice is between coal and nuclear? I prefer solutions that don't emit poisonous substances into the atmosphere nor make areas dangerous for thousands of years in case of accidents.
    - throw0101c 2y ago
      > […] nor make areas dangerous for thousands of years in case of accidents. After ~250 years spent nuclear fuel is only dangerous if you (a) eat it, or (b) grind it up and snort it like cocaine. * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx0p6QLMpg4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx0p6QLMpg4 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2t2tYQsK94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2t2tYQsK94 The long-lived stuff throws off mostly alpha particles (blocked by a sheet of paper) or beta particles (thin aluminium). The first few years (6-10) of spent fuel throws off the riskiest particles (gamma), and so the fuel sits in cooling pools for that period. The co-founder of the Chernobyl Tissue Bank, Geraldine Thomas, has no problem with nuclear power: "Look at the science – smoking and obesity are more harmful than radiation": * https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/apr/26/obesity-smoking-more-dangerous-radiation https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/apr/26/obesity-... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geraldine_Thomas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geraldine_Thomas
    - abenga 2y ago

I was recently arguing with a German who thought burning coal was completely fine as long as you were burning less than you used to. He didn’t see the reason for nuclear at all.

josefx 2y ago

Meanwhile we had significant protests over the ever expanding surface mines feeding those coal plants.

ernst_klim 2y ago

What do they think about paying much higher electricity bills than in most other EU countries? https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Electricity_price_statistics#Electricity_prices_for_household_consumers https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

croes 2y ago
This wouldn't change with nuclear energy because the price is bound to the most energy source. There is a reason the energy companies still keep coal power plants. Without the price and profit would go down.
geff82 2y ago
Aside effects of the Ukraine war, it feels like the bill people actually pay has not risen too much in recent years. Germans famously do not have air conditioning in their homes and most switched all the lights to LEDs, leading to substantial bill reductions in many cases. Electricity for cars or for heating can be obtained at about 25% lower prices and modern houses are, in general, quite energy efficient. So I'd say that the high energy prices are hindering the construction of new factories/keeping the old ones (which can turn out to have bad effects soon), but everyday life is not too much bothered by them.
PinguTS 2y ago
While that covers only the second half of 2023, the prices since then have come down significantly. Germany was never cheap, it was and is still in the top 5. What you also need to consider in those charts, what is the average salary. While it is comparable to Italy, take a closer look to Hungary how expansive it is there. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1267500/eu-monthly-wholesale-electricity-price-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1267500/eu-monthly-whole...
- ernst_klim 2y ago
  Yes, but I pay 34Cents for electricity in Germany, and my friend in Netherlands pays 24-26Cents. That's a huge deal. > what is the average salary Norway, Finland, Netherlands are still much cheaper and they are rich.
  - PinguTS 2y ago
    I can get from 25 cent/kWh (Elektrizität Berlin) to 39 cent/kWh (N-Ergie). It is what you choose.
  - aleph_minus_one 2y ago
    > Norway, Finland, Netherlands are still much cheaper and they are rich. Norway has the terrain for building hydroelectric power plants.
    - ernst_klim 2y ago
      And Finland has nuclear energy, which covers 33% of its energy needs. And so could Germany.
NikkiA 2y ago
That's almost certainly just a benefit of brexit, if we were still in the EU we'd be paying the highest, without any competition.

croes 2y ago

Which company would you trust to build and operate an nuclear power plant without putting profit over security?

criley2 2y ago
Any of them? Coal is far more dangerous to human health and life than nuclear. Pick your quasi-legitimate source, but they all agree that coal is ~10X more deadly than nuclear. > Coal-fired energy chains are estimated to cause 12 times more deaths per gigawatt-ampere-year than nuclear energy chains, and coal is estimated to cause 820% more deaths per terawatt-hour of electricity produced than nuclear
- croes 2y ago
  Who said the choice is between coal and nuclear? I prefer solutions that don't emit poisonous substances into the atmosphere nor make areas dangerous for thousands of years in case of accidents.
  - throw0101c 2y ago
    > […] nor make areas dangerous for thousands of years in case of accidents. After ~250 years spent nuclear fuel is only dangerous if you (a) eat it, or (b) grind it up and snort it like cocaine. * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx0p6QLMpg4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx0p6QLMpg4 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2t2tYQsK94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2t2tYQsK94 The long-lived stuff throws off mostly alpha particles (blocked by a sheet of paper) or beta particles (thin aluminium). The first few years (6-10) of spent fuel throws off the riskiest particles (gamma), and so the fuel sits in cooling pools for that period. The co-founder of the Chernobyl Tissue Bank, Geraldine Thomas, has no problem with nuclear power: "Look at the science – smoking and obesity are more harmful than radiation": * https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/apr/26/obesity-smoking-more-dangerous-radiation https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/apr/26/obesity-... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geraldine_Thomas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geraldine_Thomas
  - abenga 2y ago