5 ms·

Carmel can only exist as an exception within a wider metro area. Once too many communities try to follow it's model, the model no longer works since there aren

by phil21 2y ago

Carmel can only exist as an exception within a wider metro area. Once too many communities try to follow it's model, the model no longer works since there aren't enough rich folks to segregate from the poor folks. It's really not that interesting of a development model to me. These places exist in nearly every midtier NFL city I've been to - one suburb/exurb that is exceedingly exclusive and everyone knows as the "fancy area" of town. One existed where I grew up, and they were ruthless in their "not investing in poverty" stances. What I remember them most for is blocking many public transit projects from moving forward since it would bring the wrong type of folks through their part of town. That single community caused more hardship and pain than any other for the entire metro area, and that will be their legacy to me. Basically these communities can only exist as minority communities as the model of "only cater to rich people" is simply not sustainable at a wider scale. Yes, fixing only the easy problems seems like a practical way to go if I were a mayor of a random midwest exurb. It certainly isn't doing a good job or doing anything interesting for humanity though - it's simply doing the obvious most directly actionable thing you could do: make the undesirables someone else's problem.

indymike 2y ago
> only cater to rich people" is simply not sustainable at a wider scale. People have been saying this about Carmel since the mid 1990s. What is going on is sustainable as long as long-term economic growth is positive. Growth is the key... along with making sure that incentives and bond maturity are managed correctly. edit: To be fair, Carmel is mostly middle class.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  I Google for: carmel indiana median income And found: > Median household income in Carmel, IN is $132,859. Is 132K USD middle class? I would say that is upper middle class. Another search shows: https://www.statista.com/statistics/205609/median-household-income-in-the-top-20-most-populated-cities-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/205609/median-household-... San Francisco and San Jose have roughly the same household median income. Those cities are definitely upper middle class by US standards as a whole. All said, I still greatly value your posts on this topic. It seems like you are someone with first hand knowledge of this transformation. Thanks for taking the time to post about it. HN is better for it!
  - bumby 2y ago
    >Is 132K USD middle class? From what I could find online, it's at about the 77th percentile for the U.S., so bordering on upper class (usually defined as the top quintile). Since the median household income for Indiana is slightly lower than the national median, it's probably safe to say it's upper class for Indiana.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  @IndyMike: Sorry for the quick second post, but I have specific question. I hope you can shed some light with a local view. The blog post says: > A city-run water utility with lower rates and no drought restrictions. Can you provide any details on this? Usually setting up a city-run utility is political hell because the incumbent utilities do not want to let go of good business! There are so many stories on HN of cities trying to setup their own electrical utilities and tele-comm utils, but fail due to lobby and political B/S (not economics).
  - indymike 2y ago
    We have too much water here, and many incorporated areas run their own water companies here… so nothing too remarkable. Just don’t try to do cable or internet locally.
  - qwertycrackers 2y ago
    I live in the region. It is very wet and rains quite a lot. So water scarcity just isn't much of a concern. More effort is spent draining the stuff away than collecting it.
- xboxnolifes 2y ago
  They mean not sustainable for every town to replicate. It works by pushing out the undesirables and taking in the wealthy. There is only so many wealthy to take in and places for undirables to go, which decreases more and more for each town that replicates.
- bumby 2y ago
  >long-term economic growth is positive Searching "infinite growth model" can help understand some of the problems with that assumption.

by phil21 2y ago

indymike 2y ago

> only cater to rich people" is simply not sustainable at a wider scale. People have been saying this about Carmel since the mid 1990s. What is going on is sustainable as long as long-term economic growth is positive. Growth is the key... along with making sure that incentives and bond maturity are managed correctly. edit: To be fair, Carmel is mostly middle class.

throwaway2037 2y ago
I Google for: carmel indiana median income And found: > Median household income in Carmel, IN is $132,859. Is 132K USD middle class? I would say that is upper middle class. Another search shows: https://www.statista.com/statistics/205609/median-household-income-in-the-top-20-most-populated-cities-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/205609/median-household-... San Francisco and San Jose have roughly the same household median income. Those cities are definitely upper middle class by US standards as a whole. All said, I still greatly value your posts on this topic. It seems like you are someone with first hand knowledge of this transformation. Thanks for taking the time to post about it. HN is better for it!
- bumby 2y ago
  >Is 132K USD middle class? From what I could find online, it's at about the 77th percentile for the U.S., so bordering on upper class (usually defined as the top quintile). Since the median household income for Indiana is slightly lower than the national median, it's probably safe to say it's upper class for Indiana.
throwaway2037 2y ago
@IndyMike: Sorry for the quick second post, but I have specific question. I hope you can shed some light with a local view. The blog post says: > A city-run water utility with lower rates and no drought restrictions. Can you provide any details on this? Usually setting up a city-run utility is political hell because the incumbent utilities do not want to let go of good business! There are so many stories on HN of cities trying to setup their own electrical utilities and tele-comm utils, but fail due to lobby and political B/S (not economics).
- indymike 2y ago
  We have too much water here, and many incorporated areas run their own water companies here… so nothing too remarkable. Just don’t try to do cable or internet locally.
- qwertycrackers 2y ago
  I live in the region. It is very wet and rains quite a lot. So water scarcity just isn't much of a concern. More effort is spent draining the stuff away than collecting it.
xboxnolifes 2y ago
They mean not sustainable for every town to replicate. It works by pushing out the undesirables and taking in the wealthy. There is only so many wealthy to take in and places for undirables to go, which decreases more and more for each town that replicates.
bumby 2y ago
>long-term economic growth is positive Searching "infinite growth model" can help understand some of the problems with that assumption.