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I used to be an employee that would kill themselves for even minimum wage. I think being a hard worker regardless of reward is an honorable trait, but keeping

by ikety 2y ago

I used to be an employee that would kill themselves for even minimum wage. I think being a hard worker regardless of reward is an honorable trait, but keeping that up for decades is difficult. Naturally I am very loyal and agreeable. I like to solve raw engineering problems, but also social ones. I find a way to adapt to pretty much anything and anyone. This almost always ends with my employer exploiting me. Recently I've switched it up. I focus for a solid 2-4 hours a day on my tasks, and I use the remaining time for learning. It keeps my mind moving and keeps burnout at bay. Even average engineers like myself can optimize their workflow endlessly. You have a few choices at that point. You can give your surplus labor back to your employer in exchange for raises, bonuses, promotions etc. You can take back those hours to improve your WLB. You can reinvest those hours into learning that benefits your current employer, but more importantly, makes you more attractive in the job market. Right now I find myself consistently choosing the third option. Not because I'm focused on maximizing my earnings, but because it is the most fulfilling and enjoyable option for me.

snapcaster 2y ago
Why did you think being a hard worker regardless of reward is an honorable trait? I don't mean any disrespect but when i read sentences like that all that pops into my head is "sucker"
- nytesky 2y ago
  I was definitely raised that way. My parents are from New England so maybe a Puritan thing?
- FrustratedMonky 2y ago
  US Protestant culture. Work is tied up with morals and faith.
  - mcmcmc 2y ago
    Valuing hard work is not US exclusive, many eastern cultures pride themselves on hard work and contribution to community over self-centered obsession over rewards
    - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
      I agree. A lot of times hard work is a good un-to-itself, and more so when helping others, or community. I think this thread was more about widgets. Why would people work hard, go above and beyond, so their company can ship 0.007% more widgets this quarter, or improve efficiency 0.02%. When they will not be paid/rewarded any more than the slacker next to them. The people that do have that 'work' ethic, seem to be getting taken advantage of by the employer.
- Nathanba 2y ago
  because the "regardless of reward" thing is supposed to be temporary until a decent human being above you realizes that you should be rewarded. If we all just did the absolute minimum then society and humanity would never get anywhere because you'd never know who a good worker is.
  - fuzzfactor 2y ago
    >If we all just did the absolute minimum then society and humanity would never get anywhere because you'd never know who a good worker is. Maybe that's why it's not getting anywhere compared to how it should be ;)
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    > temporary until a decent human being above you realizes that you should be rewarded In my 25 year career, I have never, ever, ever seen this happen. Nobody is just going to wake up and decide that you should be making more money and reward you. You have to fight for it, schmooze for it, document all that good work you are doing, make a case, fight again for it, beg for it, plead for it, threaten to quit over it, and maybe, maybe the company will finally give in and reward you, after trying every possible way to avoid having to do it.
    - Nathanba 2y ago
      yes maybe but then you still had to work hard without appropiate reward for a while. So what difference does it make? Either way you'll be working to prove yourself first and then you make a decision whether you want to keep working hard for no additional reward. Also let's remember that this is all based on somebody's own perception of their value. I have seen it where somebody thinks that they did enough work for today and they take it upon themselves to stop working now because they felt that in relation to others, they already did an equal amount. But they were wrong and then they just look like terrible workers with a massive ego.
- harimau777 2y ago
  I think that it depends on context. To a significant degree, things like charity and parenting are hard work regardless of reward. Arguably, society is built on the idea of people working hard for the good of the whole. The problem is that corporate capitalism has become a parasite that exploits these instincts.
- RHSeeger 2y ago
  I guess it depends on your definition of "hard worker", but I think that people should do the work they agreed to do, to the best of their ability. I hired a company to install new HVAC in my house, a number of years ago. They spent some time examining the house and came up with a plan. During the course of doing the work, they would occasionally touch base with me to discuss changes they thought made sense (moving one of the thermostat to a location that it more likely to result in the correct temperature, etc). They did a good job and put real effort into making sure I got what I needed. I hired an electrician to put some outlets in a floor, so that we didn't have cords reaching across the floor from the middle of the room. I described what I was looking to do (plug in the lazyboy, phones, lamp, etc). As he was nearing the completion of his work, I noticed that the outlets were way too recessed; anything with a larger plug (iphone charger) couldn't even plug into it. He pushed back when I told him it needed to be corrected; telling me I could just use an extension cord. I had to keep pushing to get him to spend the time (time that I was paying for per hour anyways) to fix it. There is a difference between "getting the job done" and "doing a job to the best of your ability"; not killing yourself, but making sure the job is done right, the way you would want it done for yourself. The later is what I consider hard working. I want that from the people I hire and I do my best to provide the same myself. > the way you would want it done for yourself Side note, the HVAC system was, give or take, the same system the owner of the company had in his own house. I got everything I could hope for out of their work, and I still reach out to them for anything related (and recommend them highly).
- acureau 2y ago
  This is like a cornerstone of American culture, the belief that hard work will be rewarded is ingrained in us. I think it's a great attitude, but hard to keep up when you realize it's often not true
  - silverquiet 2y ago
    It actually is often rewarded quite well, just not to the one doing the work.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      Bingo. Your hard work is ultimately buying your boss's boss's boss's boss a new vacation home or sailboat. You're supposed to feel grateful that you're making a nice middle class salary and can fully fund your 401(k) while they capture the rest of the value you're producing.
- mcmcmc 2y ago
  Weird, when I read a comment like yours all that pops into my head is "lazy" and "parasite". Hard work is its own reward.
- francisofascii 2y ago
  There are plenty of indirect reasons to working hard. You are theoretically less likely to be fired. You gain a solid reputation among colleagues. You get better at the job which make is easier to get hired elsewhere. Also your conscience plays into it. You feel guilty if you slack off. And there is ego, people want to be the best, or at least not the worst.
  - snapcaster 2y ago
    Okay to be clear, the "without reward" is the part that makes you a sucker not hard work by itself
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  Of course, in ethics, you have to consider the situation where everyone has your mindset to determine whether it is bad. Everyone thinking ‘sucker’ to those who work well reminds me of what it’s like to interact with many government institutions. In that framing, the mindset might (probably) be unethical.
- ikety 2y ago
  A lot of that I think was rooted in low self-esteem. Which is something I still struggle a lot with. The mind is very powerful. At my last job I stepped up to head of engineering after our CTO resigned, and never got a raise. In my mind I didn't deserve it and was a horrible engineer.
  - seuraughty 2y ago
    I relate really strongly to this and your original reply. I worked as hard as I could and kept my head down for decades, I guess secretly hoping I’d be appreciated but never advocating or looking out for myself because I felt worthless and had a lot of self-hate. It wasn’t until I started therapy, especially EMDR and spravato, that I was able to identify and work on past traumas that were driving this behavior. Obviously I don’t know if that’s the case here, but if so I’d really recommend seeking treatment, because you deserve a peaceful and good life.
- DontchaKnowit 2y ago
  Well, really it is an altruistic trait : I will contribute my best to improving circumstances regardless of reward. Of course this is honorable. self sacrifice does not make someone a "sucker" by necessity
- swat535 2y ago
  Because it's a question of morality, if you think they are "suckers" for adhering to what they deemed as honorable, then I don't think I have much more to add. You'll end up with more cash at the end of the day, but perhaps they go home filling fulfilled. Not everything in life can be reduced to a profitable equation.
  - snapcaster 2y ago
    I never criticized hard work in general, really important to focus on the "without reward" part

by ikety 2y ago

snapcaster 2y ago

Why did you think being a hard worker regardless of reward is an honorable trait? I don't mean any disrespect but when i read sentences like that all that pops into my head is "sucker"

nytesky 2y ago
I was definitely raised that way. My parents are from New England so maybe a Puritan thing?
FrustratedMonky 2y ago
US Protestant culture. Work is tied up with morals and faith.
- mcmcmc 2y ago
  Valuing hard work is not US exclusive, many eastern cultures pride themselves on hard work and contribution to community over self-centered obsession over rewards
  - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
    I agree. A lot of times hard work is a good un-to-itself, and more so when helping others, or community. I think this thread was more about widgets. Why would people work hard, go above and beyond, so their company can ship 0.007% more widgets this quarter, or improve efficiency 0.02%. When they will not be paid/rewarded any more than the slacker next to them. The people that do have that 'work' ethic, seem to be getting taken advantage of by the employer.
Nathanba 2y ago
because the "regardless of reward" thing is supposed to be temporary until a decent human being above you realizes that you should be rewarded. If we all just did the absolute minimum then society and humanity would never get anywhere because you'd never know who a good worker is.
- fuzzfactor 2y ago
  >If we all just did the absolute minimum then society and humanity would never get anywhere because you'd never know who a good worker is. Maybe that's why it's not getting anywhere compared to how it should be ;)
- ryandrake 2y ago
  > temporary until a decent human being above you realizes that you should be rewarded In my 25 year career, I have never, ever, ever seen this happen. Nobody is just going to wake up and decide that you should be making more money and reward you. You have to fight for it, schmooze for it, document all that good work you are doing, make a case, fight again for it, beg for it, plead for it, threaten to quit over it, and maybe, maybe the company will finally give in and reward you, after trying every possible way to avoid having to do it.
  - Nathanba 2y ago
    yes maybe but then you still had to work hard without appropiate reward for a while. So what difference does it make? Either way you'll be working to prove yourself first and then you make a decision whether you want to keep working hard for no additional reward. Also let's remember that this is all based on somebody's own perception of their value. I have seen it where somebody thinks that they did enough work for today and they take it upon themselves to stop working now because they felt that in relation to others, they already did an equal amount. But they were wrong and then they just look like terrible workers with a massive ego.
harimau777 2y ago
I think that it depends on context. To a significant degree, things like charity and parenting are hard work regardless of reward. Arguably, society is built on the idea of people working hard for the good of the whole. The problem is that corporate capitalism has become a parasite that exploits these instincts.
RHSeeger 2y ago
I guess it depends on your definition of "hard worker", but I think that people should do the work they agreed to do, to the best of their ability. I hired a company to install new HVAC in my house, a number of years ago. They spent some time examining the house and came up with a plan. During the course of doing the work, they would occasionally touch base with me to discuss changes they thought made sense (moving one of the thermostat to a location that it more likely to result in the correct temperature, etc). They did a good job and put real effort into making sure I got what I needed. I hired an electrician to put some outlets in a floor, so that we didn't have cords reaching across the floor from the middle of the room. I described what I was looking to do (plug in the lazyboy, phones, lamp, etc). As he was nearing the completion of his work, I noticed that the outlets were way too recessed; anything with a larger plug (iphone charger) couldn't even plug into it. He pushed back when I told him it needed to be corrected; telling me I could just use an extension cord. I had to keep pushing to get him to spend the time (time that I was paying for per hour anyways) to fix it. There is a difference between "getting the job done" and "doing a job to the best of your ability"; not killing yourself, but making sure the job is done right, the way you would want it done for yourself. The later is what I consider hard working. I want that from the people I hire and I do my best to provide the same myself. > the way you would want it done for yourself Side note, the HVAC system was, give or take, the same system the owner of the company had in his own house. I got everything I could hope for out of their work, and I still reach out to them for anything related (and recommend them highly).
acureau 2y ago
This is like a cornerstone of American culture, the belief that hard work will be rewarded is ingrained in us. I think it's a great attitude, but hard to keep up when you realize it's often not true
- silverquiet 2y ago
  It actually is often rewarded quite well, just not to the one doing the work.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    Bingo. Your hard work is ultimately buying your boss's boss's boss's boss a new vacation home or sailboat. You're supposed to feel grateful that you're making a nice middle class salary and can fully fund your 401(k) while they capture the rest of the value you're producing.
mcmcmc 2y ago
Weird, when I read a comment like yours all that pops into my head is "lazy" and "parasite". Hard work is its own reward.
francisofascii 2y ago
There are plenty of indirect reasons to working hard. You are theoretically less likely to be fired. You gain a solid reputation among colleagues. You get better at the job which make is easier to get hired elsewhere. Also your conscience plays into it. You feel guilty if you slack off. And there is ego, people want to be the best, or at least not the worst.
- snapcaster 2y ago
  Okay to be clear, the "without reward" is the part that makes you a sucker not hard work by itself
mensetmanusman 2y ago
Of course, in ethics, you have to consider the situation where everyone has your mindset to determine whether it is bad. Everyone thinking ‘sucker’ to those who work well reminds me of what it’s like to interact with many government institutions. In that framing, the mindset might (probably) be unethical.
ikety 2y ago
A lot of that I think was rooted in low self-esteem. Which is something I still struggle a lot with. The mind is very powerful. At my last job I stepped up to head of engineering after our CTO resigned, and never got a raise. In my mind I didn't deserve it and was a horrible engineer.
- seuraughty 2y ago
  I relate really strongly to this and your original reply. I worked as hard as I could and kept my head down for decades, I guess secretly hoping I’d be appreciated but never advocating or looking out for myself because I felt worthless and had a lot of self-hate. It wasn’t until I started therapy, especially EMDR and spravato, that I was able to identify and work on past traumas that were driving this behavior. Obviously I don’t know if that’s the case here, but if so I’d really recommend seeking treatment, because you deserve a peaceful and good life.
DontchaKnowit 2y ago
Well, really it is an altruistic trait : I will contribute my best to improving circumstances regardless of reward. Of course this is honorable. self sacrifice does not make someone a "sucker" by necessity
swat535 2y ago
Because it's a question of morality, if you think they are "suckers" for adhering to what they deemed as honorable, then I don't think I have much more to add. You'll end up with more cash at the end of the day, but perhaps they go home filling fulfilled. Not everything in life can be reduced to a profitable equation.
- snapcaster 2y ago
  I never criticized hard work in general, really important to focus on the "without reward" part