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> Prove it out first Carmel has proven it. Now neighboring cities are following suit with same results see Zionsville, Westfield, Noblesville and Fishers for

> Prove it out first Carmel has proven it. Now neighboring cities are following suit with same results see Zionsville, Westfield, Noblesville and Fishers for other examples with results that are tracking right along with Carmel (although 10-15 years behind).

pyrale 2y ago
So, where do poor people live in that area?
- a2tech 2y ago
  Usually the response is 'not our problem'
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  They stand out pretty well in the census map. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmel,_Indiana#/media/File:Race_and_ethnicity_2020_Carmel,_IN.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmel,_Indiana#/media/File:Ra...
tecoholic 2y ago
Have they paid off their debt? Or how have they proven it? If they don’t get the surplus to payback bonds at maturity, are they just going to issue more bonds and keep this going perpetually? I am really curious about the bonds/debt driven development
- kelipso 2y ago
  It's a small rich city. If they get into trouble, they can do one time tax levies. Usually how they do things in the midwest.
  - bilbo0s 2y ago
    Only they aren't rich. Places that are rich don't need the debt. Look up the average household income in Carmel, IN. Then compare it to, say, Darien, CT. Now consider, Darien's per capita debt load works out to about 2% of the average annual per capita income. Carmel's per capita debt load works out to roughly 25-30% of its average annual per capita income. Look, I have nothing against small places in the midwest. I'm from small town Wisconsin. So I have just as big an affinity for flyover country as anyone else. But few of the fiscal indicators are pointing in the right direction here, and there's nothing wrong with pointing that out.
spacebanana7 2y ago
It's not proven until the debt is paid. Or at least brought down to levels similar to long term averages. Any semi-competent government should be able to improve short term results with a debt binge. But if Carmel can get long term results that are financially sustainable - because their investments justify debt cost - they've really demonstrated their model works.
bilbo0s 2y ago
Sigh. I’m a fiscal conservative. My bar for ‘prove it out’ is a lot higher than the liberal or Jesus conservative bar for ‘prove it out’. My bar includes retiring the debt. Which has not happened. And if history is any indication, it’s not likely to happen either. But again, I’ll go ahead and wish them luck on paying that back. If they can do that, good on them. Pretty sure it won’t happen though.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  When you say "fiscal conservative", what would you say that you favour more: (a) balanced budgets or (b) budget surplus? My point: When you look across the Pond (the Atlantic) to continental Europe, "fiscal centrists" (not really a term), they are mostly aiming for balanced budgets or a very small budget surplus (that can be spent in bad years). And, fiscal conservatives are regularly aiming for large (2-3% per year) budget surpluses to pay down any and all debt. (Their dream is "schwarze Null" -- zero debt.)
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
phil21 2y ago
Carmel can only exist as an exception within a wider metro area. Once too many communities try to follow it's model, the model no longer works since there aren't enough rich folks to segregate from the poor folks. It's really not that interesting of a development model to me. These places exist in nearly every midtier NFL city I've been to - one suburb/exurb that is exceedingly exclusive and everyone knows as the "fancy area" of town. One existed where I grew up, and they were ruthless in their "not investing in poverty" stances. What I remember them most for is blocking many public transit projects from moving forward since it would bring the wrong type of folks through their part of town. That single community caused more hardship and pain than any other for the entire metro area, and that will be their legacy to me. Basically these communities can only exist as minority communities as the model of "only cater to rich people" is simply not sustainable at a wider scale. Yes, fixing only the easy problems seems like a practical way to go if I were a mayor of a random midwest exurb. It certainly isn't doing a good job or doing anything interesting for humanity though - it's simply doing the obvious most directly actionable thing you could do: make the undesirables someone else's problem.
- indymike 2y ago
  > only cater to rich people" is simply not sustainable at a wider scale. People have been saying this about Carmel since the mid 1990s. What is going on is sustainable as long as long-term economic growth is positive. Growth is the key... along with making sure that incentives and bond maturity are managed correctly. edit: To be fair, Carmel is mostly middle class.
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    I Google for: carmel indiana median income And found: > Median household income in Carmel, IN is $132,859. Is 132K USD middle class? I would say that is upper middle class. Another search shows: https://www.statista.com/statistics/205609/median-household-income-in-the-top-20-most-populated-cities-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/205609/median-household-... San Francisco and San Jose have roughly the same household median income. Those cities are definitely upper middle class by US standards as a whole. All said, I still greatly value your posts on this topic. It seems like you are someone with first hand knowledge of this transformation. Thanks for taking the time to post about it. HN is better for it!

pyrale 2y ago

So, where do poor people live in that area?

a2tech 2y ago
Usually the response is 'not our problem'
ceejayoz 2y ago
They stand out pretty well in the census map. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmel,_Indiana#/media/File:Race_and_ethnicity_2020_Carmel,_IN.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmel,_Indiana#/media/File:Ra...

tecoholic 2y ago

Have they paid off their debt? Or how have they proven it? If they don’t get the surplus to payback bonds at maturity, are they just going to issue more bonds and keep this going perpetually? I am really curious about the bonds/debt driven development

kelipso 2y ago
It's a small rich city. If they get into trouble, they can do one time tax levies. Usually how they do things in the midwest.
- bilbo0s 2y ago
  Only they aren't rich. Places that are rich don't need the debt. Look up the average household income in Carmel, IN. Then compare it to, say, Darien, CT. Now consider, Darien's per capita debt load works out to about 2% of the average annual per capita income. Carmel's per capita debt load works out to roughly 25-30% of its average annual per capita income. Look, I have nothing against small places in the midwest. I'm from small town Wisconsin. So I have just as big an affinity for flyover country as anyone else. But few of the fiscal indicators are pointing in the right direction here, and there's nothing wrong with pointing that out.

spacebanana7 2y ago

It's not proven until the debt is paid. Or at least brought down to levels similar to long term averages. Any semi-competent government should be able to improve short term results with a debt binge. But if Carmel can get long term results that are financially sustainable - because their investments justify debt cost - they've really demonstrated their model works.

bilbo0s 2y ago

Sigh. I’m a fiscal conservative. My bar for ‘prove it out’ is a lot higher than the liberal or Jesus conservative bar for ‘prove it out’. My bar includes retiring the debt. Which has not happened. And if history is any indication, it’s not likely to happen either. But again, I’ll go ahead and wish them luck on paying that back. If they can do that, good on them. Pretty sure it won’t happen though.

throwaway2037 2y ago
When you say "fiscal conservative", what would you say that you favour more: (a) balanced budgets or (b) budget surplus? My point: When you look across the Pond (the Atlantic) to continental Europe, "fiscal centrists" (not really a term), they are mostly aiming for balanced budgets or a very small budget surplus (that can be spent in bad years). And, fiscal conservatives are regularly aiming for large (2-3% per year) budget surpluses to pay down any and all debt. (Their dream is "schwarze Null" -- zero debt.)

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

phil21 2y ago

Carmel can only exist as an exception within a wider metro area. Once too many communities try to follow it's model, the model no longer works since there aren't enough rich folks to segregate from the poor folks. It's really not that interesting of a development model to me. These places exist in nearly every midtier NFL city I've been to - one suburb/exurb that is exceedingly exclusive and everyone knows as the "fancy area" of town. One existed where I grew up, and they were ruthless in their "not investing in poverty" stances. What I remember them most for is blocking many public transit projects from moving forward since it would bring the wrong type of folks through their part of town. That single community caused more hardship and pain than any other for the entire metro area, and that will be their legacy to me. Basically these communities can only exist as minority communities as the model of "only cater to rich people" is simply not sustainable at a wider scale. Yes, fixing only the easy problems seems like a practical way to go if I were a mayor of a random midwest exurb. It certainly isn't doing a good job or doing anything interesting for humanity though - it's simply doing the obvious most directly actionable thing you could do: make the undesirables someone else's problem.

indymike 2y ago
> only cater to rich people" is simply not sustainable at a wider scale. People have been saying this about Carmel since the mid 1990s. What is going on is sustainable as long as long-term economic growth is positive. Growth is the key... along with making sure that incentives and bond maturity are managed correctly. edit: To be fair, Carmel is mostly middle class.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  I Google for: carmel indiana median income And found: > Median household income in Carmel, IN is $132,859. Is 132K USD middle class? I would say that is upper middle class. Another search shows: https://www.statista.com/statistics/205609/median-household-income-in-the-top-20-most-populated-cities-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/205609/median-household-... San Francisco and San Jose have roughly the same household median income. Those cities are definitely upper middle class by US standards as a whole. All said, I still greatly value your posts on this topic. It seems like you are someone with first hand knowledge of this transformation. Thanks for taking the time to post about it. HN is better for it!