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There's also the fact that VW is far behind the competion in electric vehicles and is staring down the barrel of Chinese EVs. A technology sharing agreement is

There's also the fact that VW is far behind the competion in electric vehicles and is staring down the barrel of Chinese EVs. A technology sharing agreement is part of this deal, so VW can leverage that to catch up with their own products. Rivian focuses on a different segment of the market from most cars sold by VW Group (trucks, SUVs, the American market in general) so from Rivian's perspective they're not likely to be cannibalized.

thesumofall 2y ago
I don’t think there is much evidence that they are far behind their competition in anything but sales. Efficiency of their latest models is good, software has improved a lot, and they are starting to return to their previous (good enough) quality levels. I think we are quickly approaching the full commoditization of EVs. At similar price points you get the same thing across all manufacturers. Maybe a bit more quality here, some additional software gimmicks over there, and the rest is just marketing, local patriotism, and branding. Add to that a sprinkle of varying regional adaptation
- dralley 2y ago
  I think the whole vehicle industry is looking at a slightly milder version of the "Kodak problem". That is, the money is oriented towards the service aspects of the industry. Kodak wasn't a camera company, they were a chemical company. Cameras and lenses were a loss-leader for selling film and the equipment and chemicals used to develop it. You can't just swap the products and make a little less money, it changes the entire business model. Likewise a lot of these car companies make money on the long chain of maintenance as much as or moreso than the cars themselves. Electric cars come with a whole new business model. And the core competencies that are required are much different. Less precision machining and more electrical engineering
- magnuspaaske 2y ago
  I think this is right. I don't have a car but I rent cars periodically and pick based on the UX more than the "tech" features. Most EVs are fast enough and have enough range that it doesn't really make a difference to the driving experience but the UX and all the screens do make a difference. I like the Audi E-tron because I can mostly ignore or turn off the center screen and have everything important in front of me behind the wheel. The center screen on the Polestar 2 is a bit more pronounced but can be muted when switching to the music screen. Teslas and VW EVs have way to much happening in the center screen so I avoid those. It's sad to see Volvo go down the same path but a correction should be in order. Anyways, all the tech is commoditised so you need something else to differentiate yourself. For me that's not a big center display to show how "tech forward" you are, as it ends up suggesting you're anything but.
constantcrying 2y ago
>Rivian focuses on a different segment of the market from most cars sold by VW Group (trucks, SUVs, the American market in general) so from Rivian's perspective they're not likely to be cannibalized. Couldn't be more wrong. VW is building up a direct competitor to Rivian.
audunw 2y ago
I think in some ways VW group has more experience with making/selling EVs than Tesla. They might not have the volumes of a single model, but they’ve been selling a much wider range of models than Tesla has for a fairly long time now. They still have a few years to improve their EVs, and when people really start to switch their gas cars with EVs in large volumes they have the benefit of being well established while having a wide range of model that can replace any of their old gas car offerings. I’m not 100% sure that Teslas strategy of superoptimizing 3-4 bland models is a winning strategy in the very long run. People like to buy cars that fit their needs and personality. Tesla is taking way too long to develop interesting models, and the Cybertruck, while interesting, might be too weird and flawed to be a big international success in the long run. Though if the bet on robotaxis pay off, I could see Tesla being a huge success in the future as well. I’m just not sure if that’s going to actually happen. Or if Elon will bet too much of their development efforts on it too early, and thus run out of steam before it takes off.
- dzhiurgis 2y ago
  > I’m not 100% sure that Teslas strategy of superoptimizing 3-4 bland models is a winning strategy in the very long run. People like to buy cars that fit their needs and personality. Buying mass produced car is the most environmentally friendly way - it has least manufacturing, repairs, customisation footprint. I do agree people are sick of seeing same model 3/y everywhere which is depressing thought.
  - oblio 2y ago
    VW and all major car makers have platforms, which basically mean you get the same car, with a different skin, and a range of different accessories. VW basically sells the same car through 4-5 different brands.
    - dzhiurgis 2y ago
      What percentage is the same? Also, even if VW has a platform they still sell 10x less cars than Tesla.
dogma1138 2y ago
I don’t think VWs problem is technology. It’s very much pricing, look at the ID 4 and 3 in China vs Europe it’s half the price or less. Yes there are differences in the models however the center console airbag doesn’t justify a 50% price bump. Chinese EVs are eating the lunch of European manufacturers has nothing to do with tech. The MG EVs that are some of the best selling cars in many EU countries for example are objectively worse than any European competitor they are just substantially cheaper. And unlike their Euro counterparts their base models are actually available for dealerships you can’t get a VW in the UK without tacking like 8-10K worth of addons onto it unless you want to wait for months.

thesumofall 2y ago

I don’t think there is much evidence that they are far behind their competition in anything but sales. Efficiency of their latest models is good, software has improved a lot, and they are starting to return to their previous (good enough) quality levels. I think we are quickly approaching the full commoditization of EVs. At similar price points you get the same thing across all manufacturers. Maybe a bit more quality here, some additional software gimmicks over there, and the rest is just marketing, local patriotism, and branding. Add to that a sprinkle of varying regional adaptation

dralley 2y ago
I think the whole vehicle industry is looking at a slightly milder version of the "Kodak problem". That is, the money is oriented towards the service aspects of the industry. Kodak wasn't a camera company, they were a chemical company. Cameras and lenses were a loss-leader for selling film and the equipment and chemicals used to develop it. You can't just swap the products and make a little less money, it changes the entire business model. Likewise a lot of these car companies make money on the long chain of maintenance as much as or moreso than the cars themselves. Electric cars come with a whole new business model. And the core competencies that are required are much different. Less precision machining and more electrical engineering
magnuspaaske 2y ago
I think this is right. I don't have a car but I rent cars periodically and pick based on the UX more than the "tech" features. Most EVs are fast enough and have enough range that it doesn't really make a difference to the driving experience but the UX and all the screens do make a difference. I like the Audi E-tron because I can mostly ignore or turn off the center screen and have everything important in front of me behind the wheel. The center screen on the Polestar 2 is a bit more pronounced but can be muted when switching to the music screen. Teslas and VW EVs have way to much happening in the center screen so I avoid those. It's sad to see Volvo go down the same path but a correction should be in order. Anyways, all the tech is commoditised so you need something else to differentiate yourself. For me that's not a big center display to show how "tech forward" you are, as it ends up suggesting you're anything but.

constantcrying 2y ago

>Rivian focuses on a different segment of the market from most cars sold by VW Group (trucks, SUVs, the American market in general) so from Rivian's perspective they're not likely to be cannibalized. Couldn't be more wrong. VW is building up a direct competitor to Rivian.

audunw 2y ago

I think in some ways VW group has more experience with making/selling EVs than Tesla. They might not have the volumes of a single model, but they’ve been selling a much wider range of models than Tesla has for a fairly long time now. They still have a few years to improve their EVs, and when people really start to switch their gas cars with EVs in large volumes they have the benefit of being well established while having a wide range of model that can replace any of their old gas car offerings. I’m not 100% sure that Teslas strategy of superoptimizing 3-4 bland models is a winning strategy in the very long run. People like to buy cars that fit their needs and personality. Tesla is taking way too long to develop interesting models, and the Cybertruck, while interesting, might be too weird and flawed to be a big international success in the long run. Though if the bet on robotaxis pay off, I could see Tesla being a huge success in the future as well. I’m just not sure if that’s going to actually happen. Or if Elon will bet too much of their development efforts on it too early, and thus run out of steam before it takes off.

dzhiurgis 2y ago
> I’m not 100% sure that Teslas strategy of superoptimizing 3-4 bland models is a winning strategy in the very long run. People like to buy cars that fit their needs and personality. Buying mass produced car is the most environmentally friendly way - it has least manufacturing, repairs, customisation footprint. I do agree people are sick of seeing same model 3/y everywhere which is depressing thought.
- oblio 2y ago
  VW and all major car makers have platforms, which basically mean you get the same car, with a different skin, and a range of different accessories. VW basically sells the same car through 4-5 different brands.
  - dzhiurgis 2y ago
    What percentage is the same? Also, even if VW has a platform they still sell 10x less cars than Tesla.

dogma1138 2y ago

I don’t think VWs problem is technology. It’s very much pricing, look at the ID 4 and 3 in China vs Europe it’s half the price or less. Yes there are differences in the models however the center console airbag doesn’t justify a 50% price bump. Chinese EVs are eating the lunch of European manufacturers has nothing to do with tech. The MG EVs that are some of the best selling cars in many EU countries for example are objectively worse than any European competitor they are just substantially cheaper. And unlike their Euro counterparts their base models are actually available for dealerships you can’t get a VW in the UK without tacking like 8-10K worth of addons onto it unless you want to wait for months.