4 ms·

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27950763 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27950763

EGreg 2y ago
Wow, touche And in an Apples-to-Apples comparison, WhatsApp fared far worse than Telegram on privacy, and not to mention its parent company. The only benefit I can think of WhatsApp has is claiming to be encrypted by default. So I dont need to press an extra button. I just have to take their word for it.
- lxgr 2y ago
  > And in an Apples-to-Apples comparison, WhatsApp fared far worse than Telegram on privacy, and not to mention its parent company. I'd like to see that comparison. Considering that WhatsApp is end-to-end encrypted, and Telegram persistently stores almost all of their users' messages on their backend in a way that lets them read them, I find that very hard to believe. > So I dont need to press an extra button. Nobody presses an extra button, especially not one that opts you out of multi-device support.
  - BiteCode_dev 2y ago
    Whatsapp is not open source and facebook was part of the PRISM program. I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to actually be e2e encrypted. Espacially since Zuckerberg has many years of poor track record for privacy, and made the famous quote "they trust me the dumb fucks"
    - EGreg 2y ago
      Exactly! Good points. Facebook’s been caught spying on you with audio, video, contacts, cameras you name it. What makes the true believers so sure their WhatsApp chats are really E2E encrypted and FB cant decrypt them and isnt scanning at the edge? LMAO
      - lxgr 2y ago
        > Facebook’s been caught spying on you with audio, video, contacts, cameras you name it. For contacts: I have no expectations of any contact privacy on WhatsApp. It's known and documented [1] that they upload your entire phone book for contact matching. Private set intersection would be better, but I don't see anything sneaky going on. Audio, video, cameras: What are you referring to? > What makes the true believers so sure their WhatsApp chats are really E2E encrypted and FB cant decrypt them and isnt scanning at the edge? The amount of scrutiny they're under from security researchers worldwide, and the fact that many governments are currently throwing a fit about not being able to gain access to the data either. [1] https://faq.whatsapp.com/1191526044909364 https://faq.whatsapp.com/1191526044909364
        EGreg 2y ago
        See, FB gets away with it because everyone mostly forgets. 2016 Audio: they listened to what you did through your microphone until they got caught https://www.nbc4i.com/news/spying-secrets-is-facebook-eavesdropping-on-your-phone-conversations/ https://www.nbc4i.com/news/spying-secrets-is-facebook-eavesd... 2019: Facebook caught activating camera without permission, to spy on you https://www.pcmag.com/news/facebook-app-caught-activating-phone-camera-without-permission https://www.pcmag.com/news/facebook-app-caught-activating-ph... 2020: Facebook a year later still secretly using your camera to spy on you, this time through Instagram https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24514433 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24514433 This is the company you are now trusting with the mere claim that WhatsApp is end-to-end secured. 2018: Facebook, not satisfied with getting its own users’ data only, bought and hijacked a VPN app in order to — wait for it — bypass encryption that millions of people trusted for ALL SITES ON THE INTERNET in order to analyze traffic and be able to get the dirt on its competitors! https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/08/facebook-violates-apples-data-gathering-rules-pulls-vpn-from-app-store/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/08/facebook-violate... Now about WhatsApp… Oh yeah… it’s already sending a lot of telemetry to Facebook: https://www.wired.com/story/whatsapp-instagram-facebook-data/ https://www.wired.com/story/whatsapp-instagram-facebook-data... And has been since 2016: https://www.wired.com/story/whatsapp-facebook-data-share-notification/ https://www.wired.com/story/whatsapp-facebook-data-share-not... Oh, but at least the content of your messages is not analyzed by FB? Well, as far as we know that might be true, but if the other user flags your convo, it is in fact sent to Facebook: https://www.propublica.org/article/how-facebook-undermines-privacy-protections-for-its-2-billion-whatsapp-users https://www.propublica.org/article/how-facebook-undermines-p... But wait, there’s more. Sometimes the mask slips due to People You May Know, which is the carefully guarded mix of “secret” algorithms that has helped Facebook aggressively grow beyond 100 million people: https://medium.com/hackernoon/facebook-is-reading-my-encrypted-whatsapp-conversations-375d2eba0c18 https://medium.com/hackernoon/facebook-is-reading-my-encrypt... https://gizmodo.com/people-you-may-know-a-controversial-facebook-features-1827981959 https://gizmodo.com/people-you-may-know-a-controversial-face... Mark Z knows what’s up: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/22/mark-zuckerberg-tape-webcam-microphone-facebook https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/22/mark-zuck... https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2018/apr/17/facebook-people-first-ever-mark-zuckerberg-harvard https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2018/apr/17/facebook-... Telegram has NEVER tried to do any of these types of things. So, given a choice, would I trust Zuck and co, or a guy who literally had to flee Russia because at great personal cost he had refused disclose the identities of the Maidan protestors, and losing his company to their Mail.ru conglomerate? https://www.forbes.com/profile/pavel-durov/ https://www.forbes.com/profile/pavel-durov/ https://www.quora.com/Why-was-Pavel-Durov-so-careless-in-his-selection-of-investors-for-Telegram/answer/Mary-Ginsburg-6 https://www.quora.com/Why-was-Pavel-Durov-so-careless-in-his... https://www.cnn.com/2016/02/23/europe/pavel-durov-telegram-encryption/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2016/02/23/europe/pavel-durov-telegram-e... The answer is: neither (although Pavel Durov is like 1000x more trustworthy in my opinion). https://itc.ua/en/news/durov-boasts-that-telegram-employs-about-30-engineers-security-experts-call-this-a-red-flag-for-users/ https://itc.ua/en/news/durov-boasts-that-telegram-employs-ab... I prefer open source software https://community.intercoin.app/t/web3-moxie-signal-telegram-and-why-decentralization-matters/2230 https://community.intercoin.app/t/web3-moxie-signal-telegram... And here’s why: https://community.qbix.com/t/the-global-war-on-end-to-end-encryption/214 https://community.qbix.com/t/the-global-war-on-end-to-end-en...
    - lxgr 2y ago
      So we have one app that claims to be end-to-end encrypted and is under intense scrutiny of security researchers across the world, and another one that's provably not encrypted and stores everything server side. Which one should I use?
      - BiteCode_dev 2y ago
        I don't care that the russian spy on my messages, I care that my gov does. Russian can't affect my life as much as my gov.

Wow, touche And in an Apples-to-Apples comparison, WhatsApp fared far worse than Telegram on privacy, and not to mention its parent company. The only benefit I can think of WhatsApp has is claiming to be encrypted by default. So I dont need to press an extra button. I just have to take their word for it.

lxgr 2y ago
> And in an Apples-to-Apples comparison, WhatsApp fared far worse than Telegram on privacy, and not to mention its parent company. I'd like to see that comparison. Considering that WhatsApp is end-to-end encrypted, and Telegram persistently stores almost all of their users' messages on their backend in a way that lets them read them, I find that very hard to believe. > So I dont need to press an extra button. Nobody presses an extra button, especially not one that opts you out of multi-device support.
- BiteCode_dev 2y ago
  Whatsapp is not open source and facebook was part of the PRISM program. I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to actually be e2e encrypted. Espacially since Zuckerberg has many years of poor track record for privacy, and made the famous quote "they trust me the dumb fucks"
  - EGreg 2y ago
    Exactly! Good points. Facebook’s been caught spying on you with audio, video, contacts, cameras you name it. What makes the true believers so sure their WhatsApp chats are really E2E encrypted and FB cant decrypt them and isnt scanning at the edge? LMAO
    - lxgr 2y ago
      > Facebook’s been caught spying on you with audio, video, contacts, cameras you name it. For contacts: I have no expectations of any contact privacy on WhatsApp. It's known and documented [1] that they upload your entire phone book for contact matching. Private set intersection would be better, but I don't see anything sneaky going on. Audio, video, cameras: What are you referring to? > What makes the true believers so sure their WhatsApp chats are really E2E encrypted and FB cant decrypt them and isnt scanning at the edge? The amount of scrutiny they're under from security researchers worldwide, and the fact that many governments are currently throwing a fit about not being able to gain access to the data either. [1] https://faq.whatsapp.com/1191526044909364 https://faq.whatsapp.com/1191526044909364
      - EGreg 2y ago
        See, FB gets away with it because everyone mostly forgets. 2016 Audio: they listened to what you did through your microphone until they got caught https://www.nbc4i.com/news/spying-secrets-is-facebook-eavesdropping-on-your-phone-conversations/ https://www.nbc4i.com/news/spying-secrets-is-facebook-eavesd... 2019: Facebook caught activating camera without permission, to spy on you https://www.pcmag.com/news/facebook-app-caught-activating-phone-camera-without-permission https://www.pcmag.com/news/facebook-app-caught-activating-ph... 2020: Facebook a year later still secretly using your camera to spy on you, this time through Instagram https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24514433 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24514433 This is the company you are now trusting with the mere claim that WhatsApp is end-to-end secured. 2018: Facebook, not satisfied with getting its own users’ data only, bought and hijacked a VPN app in order to — wait for it — bypass encryption that millions of people trusted for ALL SITES ON THE INTERNET in order to analyze traffic and be able to get the dirt on its competitors! https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/08/facebook-violates-apples-data-gathering-rules-pulls-vpn-from-app-store/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/08/facebook-violate... Now about WhatsApp… Oh yeah… it’s already sending a lot of telemetry to Facebook: https://www.wired.com/story/whatsapp-instagram-facebook-data/ https://www.wired.com/story/whatsapp-instagram-facebook-data... And has been since 2016: https://www.wired.com/story/whatsapp-facebook-data-share-notification/ https://www.wired.com/story/whatsapp-facebook-data-share-not... Oh, but at least the content of your messages is not analyzed by FB? Well, as far as we know that might be true, but if the other user flags your convo, it is in fact sent to Facebook: https://www.propublica.org/article/how-facebook-undermines-privacy-protections-for-its-2-billion-whatsapp-users https://www.propublica.org/article/how-facebook-undermines-p... But wait, there’s more. Sometimes the mask slips due to People You May Know, which is the carefully guarded mix of “secret” algorithms that has helped Facebook aggressively grow beyond 100 million people: https://medium.com/hackernoon/facebook-is-reading-my-encrypted-whatsapp-conversations-375d2eba0c18 https://medium.com/hackernoon/facebook-is-reading-my-encrypt... https://gizmodo.com/people-you-may-know-a-controversial-facebook-features-1827981959 https://gizmodo.com/people-you-may-know-a-controversial-face... Mark Z knows what’s up: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/22/mark-zuckerberg-tape-webcam-microphone-facebook https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/22/mark-zuck... https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2018/apr/17/facebook-people-first-ever-mark-zuckerberg-harvard https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2018/apr/17/facebook-... Telegram has NEVER tried to do any of these types of things. So, given a choice, would I trust Zuck and co, or a guy who literally had to flee Russia because at great personal cost he had refused disclose the identities of the Maidan protestors, and losing his company to their Mail.ru conglomerate? https://www.forbes.com/profile/pavel-durov/ https://www.forbes.com/profile/pavel-durov/ https://www.quora.com/Why-was-Pavel-Durov-so-careless-in-his-selection-of-investors-for-Telegram/answer/Mary-Ginsburg-6 https://www.quora.com/Why-was-Pavel-Durov-so-careless-in-his... https://www.cnn.com/2016/02/23/europe/pavel-durov-telegram-encryption/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2016/02/23/europe/pavel-durov-telegram-e... The answer is: neither (although Pavel Durov is like 1000x more trustworthy in my opinion). https://itc.ua/en/news/durov-boasts-that-telegram-employs-about-30-engineers-security-experts-call-this-a-red-flag-for-users/ https://itc.ua/en/news/durov-boasts-that-telegram-employs-ab... I prefer open source software https://community.intercoin.app/t/web3-moxie-signal-telegram-and-why-decentralization-matters/2230 https://community.intercoin.app/t/web3-moxie-signal-telegram... And here’s why: https://community.qbix.com/t/the-global-war-on-end-to-end-encryption/214 https://community.qbix.com/t/the-global-war-on-end-to-end-en...
  - lxgr 2y ago
    So we have one app that claims to be end-to-end encrypted and is under intense scrutiny of security researchers across the world, and another one that's provably not encrypted and stores everything server side. Which one should I use?
    - BiteCode_dev 2y ago
      I don't care that the russian spy on my messages, I care that my gov does. Russian can't affect my life as much as my gov.