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If Assange showed any interest in also undermining Russia or other authoritarian regimes I would feel more compassion. I think criticization of the US foreign

If Assange showed any interest in also undermining Russia or other authoritarian regimes I would feel more compassion. I think criticization of the US foreign policy is fine and the press has a role. To me his case has always been grey. States have secrets its just the nature of the world.

yesco 2y ago
Personally as an American, I'm far more interested about the shit my government is hiding from me than getting yet another reason to hate Putin, what could possibly be leaked from Russia that would make their optics worse than it already is? This was true even pre-invasion. The whataboutism surrounding this feels completely disingenuous to me considering much of what was leaked by Wikileaks was war crimes, media collusion with Clinton's campaign and embarrassing mistakes the government tried to cover up, that they had no business trying to cover up. States have secrets, but that is a privilege granted to them by the people to protect national security, their abuse of this privilege has been completely unacceptable even if the reveal made your preferred candidate look bad for actions they were personally responsible for. If Wikileaks accomplished anything, it was revealing the hypocrites and those who lack even an inch of integrity.
- sabarn01 2y ago
  Its not like what wiki leaks did is new. The pentagon papers were published 50 years ago. The us government should be held to high standards and we need a press to do that. At some level however in a world of competing states if an organization is only interested in undermining one state it makes it less trust worthy in my eyes. I think Assange views the US as an evil actor and that informs what he thinks is worthy of coverage. Its why he could call Afghans who worked with the US as collaborators as in his eyes working with the US makes you evil. I think that world view is insane and naive. However as I said there is real utility to publishing information which shouldn't be kept from the public. Which is why I think Assange is a hard case.
- CRConrad 2y ago
  > If Wikileaks accomplished anything, it was revealing the hypocrites and those who lack even an inch of integrity. It revealed some hypocrites who lack integrity. The main effect, if any, of their exposure was to pave the way for other hypocrites who lack integrity to take over the positions of power and influence of the former.
  - yesco 2y ago
    I was specifically talking about the ones who wanted to crucify Assange the moment he revealed something inconvenient for their side after years of praise for what he did under Bush, which likely applies to you as well considering your twisted perspective on this. Someone with integrity supports whistleblowers no matter who they blow the whistle on, I'm sure this revelation must be a surprise for you.
    - CRConrad 2y ago
      > Someone with integrity supports whistleblowers no matter who they blow the whistle on, I'm sure this revelation must be a surprise for you. What does that have to do with anything? Assange never was a whistleblower.
gklitz 2y ago
> States have secrets its just the nature of the world. So let’s just check your bias. Assuming an American journalist living in England exposes video of Russia gunning down civilians and shows they are covering it up. Would you say the right cause of action would be for that American to be procedures in Russia because “ States have secrets it’s just the nature of the world.” and apparently hiding war crimes and prosecuting journalists who expose them is also just states rights?
- sabarn01 2y ago
  I think this is a grey area. If you commit a crime via the internet like fraud can a state go after you? I guess I think so. Should Assange have been prosecuted is a different matter. Can journalists be prosecuted seems also like a hard case by case question. In general if you are acting in the public interest and only act as a publisher IE do not recruit or gain secrets yourself you shouldn't be prosecuted. I also think it's 100% in an other nations right to deny extradition. So what I think is that this is a hard case with lots of grey area that isn't as clear cut as people pretend it is.
kzzzznot 2y ago
States do have secrets. And when those secrets are grave and destructive, their citizens have a right to know about them.
- sabarn01 2y ago
  This is obviously false. All states have intelligence agencies military secretes ect.
  - Nasrudith 2y ago
    We also say children have a right to mot be abused yet there are many child abusers....
    - some_random 2y ago
      So you're saying the public not knowing the names of informants in Afghanistan is the same as child abuse?
  - kzzzznot 2y ago
    Of course they do. And where states' intelligence agencies or militaries overstep their mandates their citizens should know and act accordingly/
elliotto 2y ago
Do you think that killing swathes of civilians and children from helicopter is 'the nature of the world'?
- sabarn01 2y ago
  It was investigated the pilots followed roe.
linearrust 2y ago
> If Assange showed any interest in also undermining Russia or other authoritarian regimes I would feel more compassion But russia is a democracy... > States have secrets its just the nature of the world. That's an anti-democratic worldview...
- sabarn01 2y ago
  Democratic doesn't mean transparent. If the people represented by Congress make things secret that's still democratic.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

yesco 2y ago

Personally as an American, I'm far more interested about the shit my government is hiding from me than getting yet another reason to hate Putin, what could possibly be leaked from Russia that would make their optics worse than it already is? This was true even pre-invasion. The whataboutism surrounding this feels completely disingenuous to me considering much of what was leaked by Wikileaks was war crimes, media collusion with Clinton's campaign and embarrassing mistakes the government tried to cover up, that they had no business trying to cover up. States have secrets, but that is a privilege granted to them by the people to protect national security, their abuse of this privilege has been completely unacceptable even if the reveal made your preferred candidate look bad for actions they were personally responsible for. If Wikileaks accomplished anything, it was revealing the hypocrites and those who lack even an inch of integrity.

sabarn01 2y ago
Its not like what wiki leaks did is new. The pentagon papers were published 50 years ago. The us government should be held to high standards and we need a press to do that. At some level however in a world of competing states if an organization is only interested in undermining one state it makes it less trust worthy in my eyes. I think Assange views the US as an evil actor and that informs what he thinks is worthy of coverage. Its why he could call Afghans who worked with the US as collaborators as in his eyes working with the US makes you evil. I think that world view is insane and naive. However as I said there is real utility to publishing information which shouldn't be kept from the public. Which is why I think Assange is a hard case.
CRConrad 2y ago
> If Wikileaks accomplished anything, it was revealing the hypocrites and those who lack even an inch of integrity. It revealed some hypocrites who lack integrity. The main effect, if any, of their exposure was to pave the way for other hypocrites who lack integrity to take over the positions of power and influence of the former.
- yesco 2y ago
  I was specifically talking about the ones who wanted to crucify Assange the moment he revealed something inconvenient for their side after years of praise for what he did under Bush, which likely applies to you as well considering your twisted perspective on this. Someone with integrity supports whistleblowers no matter who they blow the whistle on, I'm sure this revelation must be a surprise for you.
  - CRConrad 2y ago
    > Someone with integrity supports whistleblowers no matter who they blow the whistle on, I'm sure this revelation must be a surprise for you. What does that have to do with anything? Assange never was a whistleblower.

gklitz 2y ago

> States have secrets its just the nature of the world. So let’s just check your bias. Assuming an American journalist living in England exposes video of Russia gunning down civilians and shows they are covering it up. Would you say the right cause of action would be for that American to be procedures in Russia because “ States have secrets it’s just the nature of the world.” and apparently hiding war crimes and prosecuting journalists who expose them is also just states rights?

sabarn01 2y ago
I think this is a grey area. If you commit a crime via the internet like fraud can a state go after you? I guess I think so. Should Assange have been prosecuted is a different matter. Can journalists be prosecuted seems also like a hard case by case question. In general if you are acting in the public interest and only act as a publisher IE do not recruit or gain secrets yourself you shouldn't be prosecuted. I also think it's 100% in an other nations right to deny extradition. So what I think is that this is a hard case with lots of grey area that isn't as clear cut as people pretend it is.

kzzzznot 2y ago

States do have secrets. And when those secrets are grave and destructive, their citizens have a right to know about them.

sabarn01 2y ago
This is obviously false. All states have intelligence agencies military secretes ect.
- Nasrudith 2y ago
  We also say children have a right to mot be abused yet there are many child abusers....
  - some_random 2y ago
    So you're saying the public not knowing the names of informants in Afghanistan is the same as child abuse?
- kzzzznot 2y ago
  Of course they do. And where states' intelligence agencies or militaries overstep their mandates their citizens should know and act accordingly/

elliotto 2y ago

Do you think that killing swathes of civilians and children from helicopter is 'the nature of the world'?

sabarn01 2y ago
It was investigated the pilots followed roe.

linearrust 2y ago

> If Assange showed any interest in also undermining Russia or other authoritarian regimes I would feel more compassion But russia is a democracy... > States have secrets its just the nature of the world. That's an anti-democratic worldview...

sabarn01 2y ago
Democratic doesn't mean transparent. If the people represented by Congress make things secret that's still democratic.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]