6 ms·

Sweden is a country that enthusiastically supported the Nazi regime. If we are comparing crimes I think Sweden should also stay within it's own borders. Yet th

by chinchilla2020 2y ago

Sweden is a country that enthusiastically supported the Nazi regime. If we are comparing crimes I think Sweden should also stay within it's own borders. Yet the calls from Swedes for the US to provide more Ukraine aid are deafening at this point. Swedes want the US to intervene when it benefits them, regardless of their chest-beating. Where is the criticism from Swedes when Russia murders its own journalists or China restricts freedom of speech? Please, if you are so anti-american, impress upon your countrymen to stay away from NATO. You people are clearly not interested in allying with the US.

impossiblefork 2y ago
How do you mean that we are to have enthusiastically supported the Nazis? We even warned the Soviet Union of Operation Barbarossa, using information we obtained from cracked Nazi codes. When one of my grandparents fled Norway due to the Nazis they were given asylum. During WWII Sweden was led by a political coalition consisting of the peasant's party and the social democrats, and in Germany, social democrat leadership got put into concentration camps as they were seen as communist-adjacent. >Yet the calls from Swedes for the US to provide more Ukraine aid are deafening at this point The Russians have probably threatened us behind the scenes and have probably been saying things that are quite extreme. Otherwise the social democrats wouldn't have flipped and had us join NATO. Furthermore, it's not like the US didn't want Ukraine to join the western block, so why shouldn't they help, now its attempt to do so is being met with an invasion? I don't hate America. There's much good about it, but the US should rule the US, the Swedes Sweden, and the Ukrainians Ukraine. Just as we help Ukraine, it is reasonable that the Americans do too, since it's near us, and since we're kind of in this together. >Where is the criticism from Swedes when Russia murders its own journalists or China restricts freedom of speech? Literally all the time? When has Swedish media stopped caring about people Politovskaya, etc >Please, if you are so anti-american, impress upon your countrymen to stay away from NATO. You people are clearly not interested in allying with the US. I am kind of personally opposed to our membership, but I don't hate America, nor am I necessarily anti-American as such. But I don't want US power in Europe, we should rule our lands, and the Americans theirs. If the Americans have influence here, then that is influence we ourselves do not have. Consequently, it can't be permitted. But this doesn't mean that we can't be friends. It means that the US can't have the keys to our house, or put cameras in it, or hang around the windows with binoculars, or decide what we buy, etcetera. I understand the US wanting to get at the maniacs after 9/11. 9/11 was much worse than is immediately apparent and there are details that anger me even now, that make me want to reach across the world and dash a whole bunch of people against walls and furniture, so I understand the desire to do something, even the extraordinary rendition stuff, to some degree, but you can't do this kind of thing. You weren't willing to actually go after the Saudis, which you probably should have, instead of the aggression against less relevant countries. Justice for individuals is important and soverignty is as well and even justified lashing out, when it is at odds with justice for an individual or soverignty of some foreign country, then it's not easy to go along with the lashing out of a country that is justified.
- guappa 2y ago
  > How do you mean He means like letting their troops cross sweden, sell iron to them, ask them to specially mark the documents of jews. Perhaps he's seen the photos that nazi and swedish soldiers were taking together at the time, on the border with occupied norway. > Otherwise the social democrats wouldn't have flipped and had us join NATO Or… hear me out… they're corrupt and got something from the owners of weapons factories? They had been waiting for a literal casus belli for several years.
  - impossiblefork 2y ago
    >He means like letting their troops cross sweden, sell iron to them, ask them to specially mark the documents of jews. Perhaps he's seen the photos that nazi and swedish soldiers were taking together at the time, on the border with occupied norway. Sweden was officially neutral, so the Germans were permitted to buy iron in return mostly for coal, which we needed not to die during winter. Once Germany had occupied Norway they argued that it was permitted to transit troops. Some transits were indeed permitted, but at the same time Sweden accepted many Norwegians in and many of them were trained militarily to later retake Norway. With regard to the marked passports, that is not in any way support for the Nazis. We wanted to be able to control our immigration and to know who was attempting to enter. Policy w.r.t. to Jewish immigration was also reversed as the attacks on Jews in Germany crossed the line. >Or… hear me out… they're corrupt and got something from the owners of weapons factories? We won't get more weapons factories because of NATO. Much of our weapons industry is successful because we've been one of the few highly industrialised third world countries.
    - guappa 2y ago
      > We won't get more weapons factories because of NATO We'll spend more in weapons. I never said it must be a swedish factory owner to be doing the corrupting.
      - impossiblefork 2y ago
        Yes, but we'd spend even more if we were not in NATO, and we'd spend it on weapons we'd make ourselves.
guappa 2y ago
> impress upon your countrymen to stay away from NATO Well well well… the request to join NATO was done just a few months BEFORE the election, after several changes of government since the previous elections. People in power specifically didn't want the people's opinion about that one. But just to be on the safe side, they also did a lot of mediatic fear mongering about russia invading sweden very soon™, which is ludicrous if you look at a map and see that there's a sea in between. Anyway in sweden the ruling class had wanted to join NATO for at least 10 years, if not more. But the people would have not liked severe welfare cuts to buy expensive bombs. However the invasion of ukraine provided the perfect excuse.
- mopsi 2y ago
  > But just to be on the safe side, they also did a lot of mediatic fear mongering about russia invading sweden very soon™, which is ludicrous if you look at a map and see that there's a sea in between. Perhaps you need a better map. Gotland is a prime target for Russians. Establishing air defense batteries on Gotland, along with capturing the Suwalki gap between Poland and Lithuania, are two key steps of invading the Baltics. Suwalki cuts the land supply route and Gotland the air and sea routes. To prevent liberation of Gotland and keep Swedish armed forces busy, they would then terrorize the remaining parts of Sweden with drones and missile attacks on cities the same way they do in Ukraine. Even Sweden isn't rich enough to buy enough air defense systems for that, hence the need for NATO to get access to pooled resources. It's a simple calculus.
  - guappa 2y ago
    > It's a simple calculus. It's wrong. But it's certainly very simple :) You forgot about how an invasion force is supposed to swim across the baltic. After all, Russia can't move a huge fleet in there, because access is between sweden and denmark. So they'd have to use whatever they already have in there. And sea invasions are more complicated than land invasions.
    - mopsi 2y ago
      Swim, sea invasion, huge fleet - why? It's the Swedes who would need to do swimming after Russians airdropped VDV onto Gotland in a surprise attack like they did in Hostomel, secured Visby airport, and started landing heavy equipment with Il-76 transports. Russian operation at securing Hostomel airport outside of Kyiv failed because the nearby Ukrainian forces immediately counterattacked. Until recently, Sweden had no military presence on Gotland and the island was entirely undefended. The only wrong thing here is the idea that the invasion of Gotland would have to look like Normandy landings.

impossiblefork 2y ago

How do you mean that we are to have enthusiastically supported the Nazis? We even warned the Soviet Union of Operation Barbarossa, using information we obtained from cracked Nazi codes. When one of my grandparents fled Norway due to the Nazis they were given asylum. During WWII Sweden was led by a political coalition consisting of the peasant's party and the social democrats, and in Germany, social democrat leadership got put into concentration camps as they were seen as communist-adjacent. >Yet the calls from Swedes for the US to provide more Ukraine aid are deafening at this point The Russians have probably threatened us behind the scenes and have probably been saying things that are quite extreme. Otherwise the social democrats wouldn't have flipped and had us join NATO. Furthermore, it's not like the US didn't want Ukraine to join the western block, so why shouldn't they help, now its attempt to do so is being met with an invasion? I don't hate America. There's much good about it, but the US should rule the US, the Swedes Sweden, and the Ukrainians Ukraine. Just as we help Ukraine, it is reasonable that the Americans do too, since it's near us, and since we're kind of in this together. >Where is the criticism from Swedes when Russia murders its own journalists or China restricts freedom of speech? Literally all the time? When has Swedish media stopped caring about people Politovskaya, etc >Please, if you are so anti-american, impress upon your countrymen to stay away from NATO. You people are clearly not interested in allying with the US. I am kind of personally opposed to our membership, but I don't hate America, nor am I necessarily anti-American as such. But I don't want US power in Europe, we should rule our lands, and the Americans theirs. If the Americans have influence here, then that is influence we ourselves do not have. Consequently, it can't be permitted. But this doesn't mean that we can't be friends. It means that the US can't have the keys to our house, or put cameras in it, or hang around the windows with binoculars, or decide what we buy, etcetera. I understand the US wanting to get at the maniacs after 9/11. 9/11 was much worse than is immediately apparent and there are details that anger me even now, that make me want to reach across the world and dash a whole bunch of people against walls and furniture, so I understand the desire to do something, even the extraordinary rendition stuff, to some degree, but you can't do this kind of thing. You weren't willing to actually go after the Saudis, which you probably should have, instead of the aggression against less relevant countries. Justice for individuals is important and soverignty is as well and even justified lashing out, when it is at odds with justice for an individual or soverignty of some foreign country, then it's not easy to go along with the lashing out of a country that is justified.

guappa 2y ago
> How do you mean He means like letting their troops cross sweden, sell iron to them, ask them to specially mark the documents of jews. Perhaps he's seen the photos that nazi and swedish soldiers were taking together at the time, on the border with occupied norway. > Otherwise the social democrats wouldn't have flipped and had us join NATO Or… hear me out… they're corrupt and got something from the owners of weapons factories? They had been waiting for a literal casus belli for several years.
- impossiblefork 2y ago
  >He means like letting their troops cross sweden, sell iron to them, ask them to specially mark the documents of jews. Perhaps he's seen the photos that nazi and swedish soldiers were taking together at the time, on the border with occupied norway. Sweden was officially neutral, so the Germans were permitted to buy iron in return mostly for coal, which we needed not to die during winter. Once Germany had occupied Norway they argued that it was permitted to transit troops. Some transits were indeed permitted, but at the same time Sweden accepted many Norwegians in and many of them were trained militarily to later retake Norway. With regard to the marked passports, that is not in any way support for the Nazis. We wanted to be able to control our immigration and to know who was attempting to enter. Policy w.r.t. to Jewish immigration was also reversed as the attacks on Jews in Germany crossed the line. >Or… hear me out… they're corrupt and got something from the owners of weapons factories? We won't get more weapons factories because of NATO. Much of our weapons industry is successful because we've been one of the few highly industrialised third world countries.
  - guappa 2y ago
    > We won't get more weapons factories because of NATO We'll spend more in weapons. I never said it must be a swedish factory owner to be doing the corrupting.
    - impossiblefork 2y ago
      Yes, but we'd spend even more if we were not in NATO, and we'd spend it on weapons we'd make ourselves.

guappa 2y ago

> impress upon your countrymen to stay away from NATO Well well well… the request to join NATO was done just a few months BEFORE the election, after several changes of government since the previous elections. People in power specifically didn't want the people's opinion about that one. But just to be on the safe side, they also did a lot of mediatic fear mongering about russia invading sweden very soon™, which is ludicrous if you look at a map and see that there's a sea in between. Anyway in sweden the ruling class had wanted to join NATO for at least 10 years, if not more. But the people would have not liked severe welfare cuts to buy expensive bombs. However the invasion of ukraine provided the perfect excuse.

mopsi 2y ago
> But just to be on the safe side, they also did a lot of mediatic fear mongering about russia invading sweden very soon™, which is ludicrous if you look at a map and see that there's a sea in between. Perhaps you need a better map. Gotland is a prime target for Russians. Establishing air defense batteries on Gotland, along with capturing the Suwalki gap between Poland and Lithuania, are two key steps of invading the Baltics. Suwalki cuts the land supply route and Gotland the air and sea routes. To prevent liberation of Gotland and keep Swedish armed forces busy, they would then terrorize the remaining parts of Sweden with drones and missile attacks on cities the same way they do in Ukraine. Even Sweden isn't rich enough to buy enough air defense systems for that, hence the need for NATO to get access to pooled resources. It's a simple calculus.
- guappa 2y ago
  > It's a simple calculus. It's wrong. But it's certainly very simple :) You forgot about how an invasion force is supposed to swim across the baltic. After all, Russia can't move a huge fleet in there, because access is between sweden and denmark. So they'd have to use whatever they already have in there. And sea invasions are more complicated than land invasions.
  - mopsi 2y ago
    Swim, sea invasion, huge fleet - why? It's the Swedes who would need to do swimming after Russians airdropped VDV onto Gotland in a surprise attack like they did in Hostomel, secured Visby airport, and started landing heavy equipment with Il-76 transports. Russian operation at securing Hostomel airport outside of Kyiv failed because the nearby Ukrainian forces immediately counterattacked. Until recently, Sweden had no military presence on Gotland and the island was entirely undefended. The only wrong thing here is the idea that the invasion of Gotland would have to look like Normandy landings.