9 ms·

What's the difference between anti-competitive bundling, and developing seamless integrated experiences? If this is anti-competitive, is it anti-competitive fo

What's the difference between anti-competitive bundling, and developing seamless integrated experiences? If this is anti-competitive, is it anti-competitive for Apple to bundle music features/up-sell into the iOS UI, or provide an interface for headphones that no other manufacturer can integrate with?

talldayo 2y ago
> What's the difference between anti-competitive bundling, and developing seamless integrated experiences? The availability of APIs for third-party developers to create a similar competing experience.
- stock_toaster 2y ago
  Also an actual monopoly (windows OS).
- crowcroft 2y ago
  I think that's a completely fair distinction. Do you draw the line at APIs? Should Apple be forced to sell H1 chips and let other headphone makers create the same experience as AirPods?
- bongodongobob 2y ago
  There is one, you can add all sorts of third party add-ons to Teams.
  - talldayo 2y ago
    But can your app be integrated into Windows with equal footing as Teams?
    - bongodongobob 2y ago
      I don't even know what that means.
    - moontear 2y ago
      How is the Teams we are talking about here integrated into Windows? Teams is integrated into M365 and taking Outlook as an example you can register another calling/status app just like others do so your online status and calling functionality is not Teams (used to be Skype).
      - bearjaws 2y ago
        It's now installed by default and in your task bar on Windows 11. It's not even just an icon either, its similar to OneDrive where removing it is non-trivial. https://www.reddit.com/r/Intune/comments/10whv8c/hows_everyone_removing_the_teams_for_home_app_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Intune/comments/10whv8c/hows_everyo... https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows11/comments/q4elim/can_we_talk_about_what_microsoft_is_doing_with/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows11/comments/q4elim/can_we_ta... When will Slack get this same level of access? They won't ever.
        bongodongobob 2y ago
        What do you mean by "access"?
        talldayo 2y ago
        > What do you mean by "access"? Strictly speaking, the ability for a third-party application to leverage Teams' features without bundling with the OS like Teams.
- elevatedastalt 2y ago
  What API exists for third-party developers to create experiences similar to first party Apple apps?
  - NekkoDroid 2y ago
    Thats exactly the problem: there aren't. Which is part of the reason why the DMA even really exists.
gabeio 2y ago
While they offer it they don’t hand it to you for free just because you bought their iCloud storage. The issue here seems to be aimed squarely at slack and the like which have been in-theory pushed out of the market by teams. Of course most of us know that’s unfortunate because if they actually used teams for a little they wouldn’t use it even if it was bundled (probably why MS is trying to stick it everywhere).
- EasyMark 2y ago
  I thought the issue was that it comes installed by default. Like the old “Microsoft installed a browser to kill netscape” brawl in America.
  - Auracle 2y ago
    Where does that end? Is Paint ok to have installed by default? You can generate images in it now using some sort of credit system, so it’s not totally free. Should Adobe sue? I just don’t get the EU’s overzealous regulations. Who is being hurt by Teams? Slack/Discord/Zoom? I doubt any major companies are using Teams just because it’s installed. They may be using it because it’s part of the Office Suite, but shouldn’t they be allowed to bundle that? Should Adobe not be able to bundle everything in Creative Cloud? It just seems so arbitrary.
    - crabmusket 2y ago
      > Where does that end? Is Paint ok to have installed by default? These are questions for the democratically controlled regulatory process to decide, which is what's happening with Teams. If you feel that Paint should be considered a harmful bundling practise under current laws, you can organise and push for that investigation to happen. Will it be difficult? Yes. These institutions are slow moving as society is vast and complex. Is it worth it? Yes. Democratic institutions and regulations are the best way we've discovered to conduct human affairs at scale.
      - hypercube33 2y ago
spankalee 2y ago
And how would chat and video calls not now be a standard part of an office suite anyway?
EasyMark 2y ago
Something can be seamless AND separate. Just install the “seamless” apps as needed. Seamless and needing to be installed are orthogonal goals. You can have either, both, or neither. It should be the end users choice and a side effect is that competitors can have a chance as well.
- crowcroft 2y ago
  They should be, but are they in practice? It can be quite advantageous to bundle them together.
colonwqbang 2y ago
Apple still charges extra for the Apple music service, right? Spotify costs $12/month, Apple music costs $11. If that's true then it seems market competition is working decently in that area. If you could launch a competing service and charge $10 you might have a chance. What Microsoft did was, they said "Hey we have a monopoly on office software. We should have a monopoly on chat too". And they started giving away Teams for "free" i.e. all companies who were paying for an Office subscription were suddenly paying for Teams too with no way to opt out. How is someone going to compete, when most of their potential customers are already forcibly subscribed to a "good enough" competing service. It was especially egregious here because Teams was such an inferior product so it probably won in no small part due to this tactic.
- ClassyJacket 2y ago
  I'm not saying MS don't do shady stuff, but why single this out? YouTube is a monopoly on video and they bundle Music with Premium. Just seems like this is happening everywhere all the time.
  - Qwertious 2y ago
    YouTube desperately needs an antitrust hammering and everyone knows it.
  - kergonath 2y ago
    > I'm not saying MS don't do shady stuff, but why single this out? It’s an action started by Teams competitors. They have no interest in chasing YouTube. OTOH, the EC is definitely chasing more than one company, it’s all over the news. Google is scrutinised regularly.
- gehsty 2y ago
  Feels a bit like your forgetting Skype for business and lync already existed. I kinda agree with your point but I also feel it’s unfair on Microsoft, they are giving their customers more services for the same price, and the customers are using the services… I’m not sure the customer really loses out if ms are saving them another subscription + integration cost.
surfingdino 2y ago
> What's the difference between anti-competitive bundling, and developing seamless integrated experiences? Software is not like glazing on a cake. You can install different pieces of software on the same machine separately and have them work together. It's not like installing them all at once results in a better experience.
yellow_postit 2y ago
How much the corporation pays for lobbying and if they are, or are not, based in the EU it seems.

talldayo 2y ago

> What's the difference between anti-competitive bundling, and developing seamless integrated experiences? The availability of APIs for third-party developers to create a similar competing experience.

stock_toaster 2y ago
Also an actual monopoly (windows OS).
crowcroft 2y ago
I think that's a completely fair distinction. Do you draw the line at APIs? Should Apple be forced to sell H1 chips and let other headphone makers create the same experience as AirPods?
bongodongobob 2y ago
There is one, you can add all sorts of third party add-ons to Teams.
- talldayo 2y ago
  But can your app be integrated into Windows with equal footing as Teams?
  - bongodongobob 2y ago
    I don't even know what that means.
  - moontear 2y ago
    How is the Teams we are talking about here integrated into Windows? Teams is integrated into M365 and taking Outlook as an example you can register another calling/status app just like others do so your online status and calling functionality is not Teams (used to be Skype).
    - bearjaws 2y ago
      It's now installed by default and in your task bar on Windows 11. It's not even just an icon either, its similar to OneDrive where removing it is non-trivial. https://www.reddit.com/r/Intune/comments/10whv8c/hows_everyone_removing_the_teams_for_home_app_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Intune/comments/10whv8c/hows_everyo... https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows11/comments/q4elim/can_we_talk_about_what_microsoft_is_doing_with/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows11/comments/q4elim/can_we_ta... When will Slack get this same level of access? They won't ever.
      - bongodongobob 2y ago
        What do you mean by "access"?
        talldayo 2y ago
        > What do you mean by "access"? Strictly speaking, the ability for a third-party application to leverage Teams' features without bundling with the OS like Teams.
elevatedastalt 2y ago
What API exists for third-party developers to create experiences similar to first party Apple apps?
- NekkoDroid 2y ago
  Thats exactly the problem: there aren't. Which is part of the reason why the DMA even really exists.

gabeio 2y ago

While they offer it they don’t hand it to you for free just because you bought their iCloud storage. The issue here seems to be aimed squarely at slack and the like which have been in-theory pushed out of the market by teams. Of course most of us know that’s unfortunate because if they actually used teams for a little they wouldn’t use it even if it was bundled (probably why MS is trying to stick it everywhere).

EasyMark 2y ago
I thought the issue was that it comes installed by default. Like the old “Microsoft installed a browser to kill netscape” brawl in America.
- Auracle 2y ago
  Where does that end? Is Paint ok to have installed by default? You can generate images in it now using some sort of credit system, so it’s not totally free. Should Adobe sue? I just don’t get the EU’s overzealous regulations. Who is being hurt by Teams? Slack/Discord/Zoom? I doubt any major companies are using Teams just because it’s installed. They may be using it because it’s part of the Office Suite, but shouldn’t they be allowed to bundle that? Should Adobe not be able to bundle everything in Creative Cloud? It just seems so arbitrary.
  - crabmusket 2y ago
    > Where does that end? Is Paint ok to have installed by default? These are questions for the democratically controlled regulatory process to decide, which is what's happening with Teams. If you feel that Paint should be considered a harmful bundling practise under current laws, you can organise and push for that investigation to happen. Will it be difficult? Yes. These institutions are slow moving as society is vast and complex. Is it worth it? Yes. Democratic institutions and regulations are the best way we've discovered to conduct human affairs at scale.
    - hypercube33 2y ago

spankalee 2y ago

And how would chat and video calls not now be a standard part of an office suite anyway?

EasyMark 2y ago

Something can be seamless AND separate. Just install the “seamless” apps as needed. Seamless and needing to be installed are orthogonal goals. You can have either, both, or neither. It should be the end users choice and a side effect is that competitors can have a chance as well.

crowcroft 2y ago
They should be, but are they in practice? It can be quite advantageous to bundle them together.

colonwqbang 2y ago

Apple still charges extra for the Apple music service, right? Spotify costs $12/month, Apple music costs $11. If that's true then it seems market competition is working decently in that area. If you could launch a competing service and charge $10 you might have a chance. What Microsoft did was, they said "Hey we have a monopoly on office software. We should have a monopoly on chat too". And they started giving away Teams for "free" i.e. all companies who were paying for an Office subscription were suddenly paying for Teams too with no way to opt out. How is someone going to compete, when most of their potential customers are already forcibly subscribed to a "good enough" competing service. It was especially egregious here because Teams was such an inferior product so it probably won in no small part due to this tactic.

ClassyJacket 2y ago
I'm not saying MS don't do shady stuff, but why single this out? YouTube is a monopoly on video and they bundle Music with Premium. Just seems like this is happening everywhere all the time.
- Qwertious 2y ago
  YouTube desperately needs an antitrust hammering and everyone knows it.
- kergonath 2y ago
  > I'm not saying MS don't do shady stuff, but why single this out? It’s an action started by Teams competitors. They have no interest in chasing YouTube. OTOH, the EC is definitely chasing more than one company, it’s all over the news. Google is scrutinised regularly.
gehsty 2y ago
Feels a bit like your forgetting Skype for business and lync already existed. I kinda agree with your point but I also feel it’s unfair on Microsoft, they are giving their customers more services for the same price, and the customers are using the services… I’m not sure the customer really loses out if ms are saving them another subscription + integration cost.

surfingdino 2y ago

> What's the difference between anti-competitive bundling, and developing seamless integrated experiences? Software is not like glazing on a cake. You can install different pieces of software on the same machine separately and have them work together. It's not like installing them all at once results in a better experience.

yellow_postit 2y ago

How much the corporation pays for lobbying and if they are, or are not, based in the EU it seems.