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Israeli documents show expansive government effort to shape US discourse
- bitcharmer 2y agoHow is this news? This has been going on for decades
- AustinDev 2y agoThere is evidence to suggest this has been going on since before WW2[1] https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/display/document/obo-9780199840731/obo-9780199840731-0006.xml https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/display/document/obo-97...
- adamtaylor_13 2y agoSince before WW2 when the Israeli nation didn't exist? (Yes, I'm aware of the historical context of "Israel", but the nation as we know it today didn't exist until 1948).
- lawlessone 2y agoThe movement to form a nation had started pre world war two. It had some backers but obviously wasn't as urgent before then.
- bitcharmer 2y agoThe diaspora existed long before the state
- rf15 2y agoIt ramped up drastically only a few decades before, but yes, Revisionist Zionism is a religious extremist movement that spent and still is spending a lot of effort and money to justify the existence of their own exclusive country that never existed in the shape they claimed it to be. (Which is the area of Palestine AND Jordan. I drew this conclusion largely from reading too much Wikipedia) Now that it exists though, I'm afraid we must accept that and work with the new status quo. We can't just displace or kill a couple of thousands people for historic justice, right? Edit: Downvote me, I'm endlessly pissed over the hypocrisy of my own country on the matter.
- sequoia 2y agoCan you clarify what “evidence” your link provides? And what exactly are you suggesting “has been going on”? Your claim is vague and spooky. Please clarify what you think “they” have been doing.
- AustinDev 2y agoA Zionist influence campaign targeting western governments and public opinion with the aim form an Israeli state predates WW2 and has been going on for over a century. Not sure you're referring to with your scare quoted 'they'.
- sequoia 2y ago[flagged]
- racional 2y ago1. What are you suggesting “has been going on since before World War II”? Before Israel's formation as a state -- a campaign to influence public opinion and policy in favor of that formation. Afterwards -- a campaign to defend its unlawful and unrecognized territorial expansion; to deny its atrocities (from 1948 through the present day) for as long as possible; and to keep U.S. military and financial support flowing, no matter what Israel does. And as an added cherry on top: an astonishly successful campaign to brand essentially any serious criticism of Israel's policies or its founding ideology as antisemitic. 4. Don’t be coy, you know precisely the “they” you’re referring to. There is no “they”, scare-quoted or otherwise, in the commenter's posts in this thread (except when they're quoting from yours). However we see that you've introduced this formulation twice now. Perhaps you'd care to explain why you are doubling down on this rather peculiar misrepresentation of the commenter's words. Don't be coy now.
- atkailash 2y ago[dead]
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- cheeseomlit 2y agoIt certainly has, the news to me is that mainstream publications are actually talking about it without framing the entire thing as an 'antisemitic canard'
- adamtaylor_13 2y agoThe US public's opinion on Israel is the most divided that it's EVER been. Given that we're they're #1 ally and probably one of the reasons they haven't been wiped off the face of the planet, there's a strong incentive for them to try to shape US discourse in their favor. Agreed with other commenter here, not sure how this is news.
- cheeseomlit 2y agoIt just seems a little strange that when other countries try to influence our political discourse with these astroturfing methods (Russia for example) it's met with vicious opposition, and rightfully so, but when Israel does it people just shrug and say its not news
- adamtaylor_13 2y ago[flagged]
- racional 2y agoIsrael is not [an enemy] But judging from its actions it isn't exactly a friend of the United States either. That's why these actions draw scrutiny.
- Dig1t 2y ago>None of the groups identified in this story’s reporting have registered under the Foreign Agents Registration Act (Fara). >“There’s a built-in assumption that there’s nothing at all weird about viewing the US as sort of an open field for Israel to operate in, that there are no limitations,” Why does Israel have such a privileged status with respect to other nations? If it were any other country, US news organizations and politicians would be up in arms about a foreign government directly manipulating US public opinion. But this one country is special. Why? >Georgia’s governor, Brian Kemp, signed legislation that revised Georgia’s hate crime statute to include the IHRA definition of antisemitism in January, making it possible for certain criticisms of Israel to lead to increased prison sentences. Isn't this eroding free speech in the US? How is it constitutional that saying something about the politics of a foreign government could lead to increased prison sentences for US citizens?
- piva00 2y agoIt's a good question for Americans: what do you think would be happening if Israeli tactics to influence the USA would be coming from China? Or even the UK, an ally? Would there be politicians changing laws, flags of these countries being displayed around major cities, etc.?
- krapp 2y ago>Why does Israel have such a privileged status with respect to other nations? If it were any other country, US news organizations and politicians would be up in arms about a foreign government directly manipulating US public opinion. But this one country is special. Why? Religion, mostly. Despite its secular and liberal pretenses, the US and in particular the US government is deeply influenced by Conservative and Evangelical Christian interests, among which support for Israel is seen as a necessity to bring about the apocalypse and second coming of Jesus. Many Americans see themselves and their nation as metaphysically blessed, founded by and given a destiny by God, and see Israel with a similar metaphysical lens. Therefore, Israel can never been seen as merely a state. Everything it does is entangled in America's own sense of cosmic self-importance and destiny. Also, Israel is good money for the American military industrial complex. Setting aside the many Americans who ultimately believe a global war allied with Israel against the Islamic world is inevitable (as per their interpretation of the Book of Revelations) and their influence on American foreign policy, the mere presence of Israel as an ally creates enough chaos and discontent to fund America's war racket in that part of the world indefinitely. >Isn't this eroding free speech in the US? How is it constitutional that saying something about the politics of a foreign government could lead to increased prison sentences for US citizens? It's particularly weird when you consider that antisemitism and racism are often given a full-throated defense by Americans in the name of freedom of speech, a nation that proudly declares the Klan can march in the streets and Mein Kampf can be bought in bookstores, but public opposition to the policies of the state of Israel - opposition by a public which includes many Jews - results in the swiftest and most pervasive crackdown on free speech that I've seen in my lifetime. Or at the very least since right after 9/11.
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- guiriduro 2y ago[flagged]
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- atkailash 2y ago[dead]
- afavour 2y agoI’ve been surprised how brazen it’s been. For a little while almost every Twitter login I’d see a promoted tweet from the official Israel account making some statement or other about the war. That I can tolerate but I found the same account promoting outrage about US campus protests to be distasteful. That’s a domestic US issue and trying to influence it from the outside feels inappropriate, not to mention leans into a bunch of antisemitic tropes!
- szundi 2y agoAll US domestic political issues are international concerns too - they are the omnipotent superpower
- afavour 2y agoConcerns, sure. But Israel is a staunch US ally, trying to directly influence what US citizens think about domestic events feels like a brazen thing for an ally to do.
- wyldberry 2y agoAlly doesn't mean you stop your intelligence services against them. It simply means there are things you agree about, currently, and agree to do. Everyone is always jockeying for power. No one stops trying to influence their allies.
- afavour 2y agoYeah, I'm aware. I didn't say I'm surprised Israel is trying to influence US public opinion, I said I'm surprised how brazen they are being about it. Using your intelligence services behind the scenes is very different to paying to publicly promote tweets from your official national account.
- NomDePlum 2y agoThat being the case then why are the objections raised when other countries do similar? Iran, Russia, or China, for instance.
- TehShrike 2y agoI read about half the article before giving up, but is there any information what Israeli officials actually did to shape US discourse? Besides having meetings.
- wyldberry 2y agoNothing special, and an exceeding amount is above board. Everyone is playing the same game, using mostly the same tactics. Get wealthy people on board, use that to get policy makers on board while buying up advertising to target and sway people one way or the other. All foreign powers will try to do the same thing, through the legal channels, and the not so legal channels. The current order enforced on the back of the US dollar is simply too powerful to not do that. Americans are broadly naive about this, so it's relatively easy to "shock" them into caring about it.
- NomDePlum 2y ago"It included 80 programs already under way for advocacy efforts “to be done in the ‘Concert’ way”, he said. The “Concert” remark referred to a sprawling relaunch of a controversial Israeli government program initially known as Kela Shlomo, designed to carry out what Israel called “mass consciousness activities” targeted largely at the US and Europe. Concert, now known as Voices of Israel, previously worked with groups spearheading a campaign to pass so-called “anti-BDS” state laws that penalize Americans for engaging in boycotts or other non-violent protests of Israel. Its latest incarnation is part of a hardline and sometimes covert operation by the Israeli government to strike back at student protests, human rights organizations and other voices of dissent." To me, the article is littered with detailed concrete examples of how Israel has sought to suppress and manipulate US public opinion and prevent or dampen normal democratic discussion, protest and actions. The above quote is in the opening few paragraphs.
- TehShrike 2y ago> worked with groups spearheading a campaign to pass so-called “anti-BDS” state laws What kind of groups did they work with? What kind of work did they do with them? For all I know they're funneling money to non-profits owned by family members of government officials. There is nothing concrete here.
- JoshTko 2y agoInteresting article! Spells out in detail the different tactics used such as advertising, partnership with other organizations, policy/law lobbying, content management partnerships etc. that Israel used. Also interesting in terms of phrasing used, as the wording would be very different if say China was found doing these activities.
- golergka 2y ago[flagged]
- text0404 2y ago[flagged]
- jocker12 2y agoA different article (What everyone gets wrong about the 2015 Ashley Madison scandal - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40786891 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40786891) gives a lot more context to this story about which many commenters say it is no news at all. Yes, it's not, because the Israelis "have been doing this for decades". But... (and I'll go to the other article)... "But that isn’t a new story. People have been trying to have affairs with strangers for thousands of years. Ashley Madison was never really about that. Avid Life Media, its parent company, wasn’t in the business of sex, it was in the business of bots. Its site became a prototype for what social media platforms such as Facebook are becoming: places so packed with AI-generated nonsense that they feel like spam cages, or information prisons where the only messages that get through are auto-generated ads."
- sequoia 2y agoPro tip for reading an article that concerns Israel: compare and get context. Israel is often held up as a boogeyman even when it compares similarly to other countries. For example, I could say “Israel has a higher rate of incarceration than China!” and while (according to Wikipedia) that’s true, it’s also true for 90+ other states and territories. Israel sounds uniquely bad in the first telling, but when you contextualize you see that they are actual around the middle of the pack. No more boogeyman. Context is terrible for the boogeyman narrative, so it’s usually left out. In this case, the accusation is that Israel attempts to influence US opinion. Do other countries do this? In 2020 the US department of education said it uncovered ‘$6.6bn in previously unreported gifts from countries including Qatar, China, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. It said this figure could be "significantly underestimated".’[0] $6.6b in secret funding from mostly anti-democratic countries, just to a few universities. How does this story about Israel sound now, in the light of more context? Context tends to disrupt the “Israel the unique boogeyman” narrative. Does the guardian story include any context about how other countries try to influence US opinion, or what is typical? If not, why not? tl;dr: seek context, especially in stories about boogeyman Israel. 0: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51481396 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51481396