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Here's how much is installed when you do `pip install django` currently: 122370 django python=103934,javascript=18407,xml=29 2734 sqlparse

Here's how much is installed when you do `pip install django` currently: 122370 django python=103934,javascript=18407,xml=29 2734 sqlparse python=2734 1110 asgiref python=1110 This will probably change when `django-tasks` gets merged in. Here's what installing `flask` + `sqlalchemy` pulls in: 141314 sqlalchemy python=141314 11464 werkzeug python=11159,javascript=305 8934 greenlet cpp=4993,python=2729,ansic=1092,asm=120 8606 jinja2 python=8606 5842 click python=5842 3907 flask python=3907 2036 top_dir python=2036 644 itsdangerous python=644 487 markupsafe ansic=278,python=209 349 blinker python=349 Looks like the same order of magnitude to me, which is surprising. I had always thought of `django` as being heavy weight and opinionated, while `flask` + `sqlalchemy` was light and modular. All numbers generated using David A. Wheeler's 'SLOCCount'. :-)

evantbyrne 2y ago
I suspect that people come to the conclusion that Django has performance issues by looking at synthetic benchmark rankings between frameworks. In that sense it may or may not be relatively slow, but it is probably fast-enough for almost all web services in-practice. And if you measure with all of the speediest HTTP interfaces and find out it isn't fast-enough, then frankly Python is probably not the right choice at all.
- Paul-Craft 2y ago
  I've never heard of anybody complaining about Django per se having performance issues. When people say Django is "heavy weight," I tend to think of how it bundles a lot of stuff for you, which can make it easy to build an app; while, at the same time, if you end up deciding you want to step slightly off the garden path and do things juussssst a little differently than Django wants you to, you're probably gonna have a bad time. OTOH, Flask is too small to impose much of a conceptual framework on you, and SQLAlchemy generally feels like a fairly thin layer of Python syntactic sugar over top of SQL. When I write queries in SQLAlchemy, it seems like they always tend to come out looking more like what I would write in plain SQL than queries in Django do. Granted, both ORMs can start doing things like joining tables behind your back, which can certainly cause performance problems, but that's a problem that's common to both, and not just Django. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  - wormlord 2y ago
    > if you end up deciding you want to step slightly off the garden path and do things juussssst a little differently than Django wants you to, you're probably gonna have a bad time. Yep! I am using Flask + SQLAlchemy so I can have an orchestration layer that handles all the business logic, and just takes in my Flask app, Celery app, and database sessions as dependencies. I don't know if there's an equivalent way to do that in Django. If there is, it seems like it would be more trouble than it is worth.

evantbyrne 2y ago

I suspect that people come to the conclusion that Django has performance issues by looking at synthetic benchmark rankings between frameworks. In that sense it may or may not be relatively slow, but it is probably fast-enough for almost all web services in-practice. And if you measure with all of the speediest HTTP interfaces and find out it isn't fast-enough, then frankly Python is probably not the right choice at all.

Paul-Craft 2y ago
I've never heard of anybody complaining about Django per se having performance issues. When people say Django is "heavy weight," I tend to think of how it bundles a lot of stuff for you, which can make it easy to build an app; while, at the same time, if you end up deciding you want to step slightly off the garden path and do things juussssst a little differently than Django wants you to, you're probably gonna have a bad time. OTOH, Flask is too small to impose much of a conceptual framework on you, and SQLAlchemy generally feels like a fairly thin layer of Python syntactic sugar over top of SQL. When I write queries in SQLAlchemy, it seems like they always tend to come out looking more like what I would write in plain SQL than queries in Django do. Granted, both ORMs can start doing things like joining tables behind your back, which can certainly cause performance problems, but that's a problem that's common to both, and not just Django. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- wormlord 2y ago
  > if you end up deciding you want to step slightly off the garden path and do things juussssst a little differently than Django wants you to, you're probably gonna have a bad time. Yep! I am using Flask + SQLAlchemy so I can have an orchestration layer that handles all the business logic, and just takes in my Flask app, Celery app, and database sessions as dependencies. I don't know if there's an equivalent way to do that in Django. If there is, it seems like it would be more trouble than it is worth.