4 ms·

I already know how this will be solved: Microsoft will pay a (small) fine and file it under "the cost of doing business" while the damage is already done. Teams

I already know how this will be solved: Microsoft will pay a (small) fine and file it under "the cost of doing business" while the damage is already done. Teams is one of the absolutely worst products ever programmed, it's hiliarious how bad it is. It only reached its market share because Microsoft gave it away "for free" with Office 365 or MS 365 or whatever it's called now.

PM_me_your_math 2y ago
[dead]
EasyMark 2y ago
Don’t these “actions”usually include separating the products out the way the EU wants them?aka don’t include Teams in EU installs of MS office or don’t even include office at all? Otherwise a fine is useless.
- sunaookami 2y ago
  Doesn't matter if everyone already uses Teams and the damage is done. Look at Netscape vs IE.
  - Auracle 2y ago
    Yet we’d absolutely balk at a computer or phone not coming with a browser by default nowadays. I don’t really think that ruling was on the right side of history.
    - Qwertious 2y ago
      That's because the browser is a de-facto OS, which occurred only due to a sheer lack of actual OS market innovation - Debian had a package manager 20 years ago, Windows didn't until 2019. Browsers succeeded because apps ("websites") abstracted away the download/install process in a user friendly fashion. That ruling's only fault was that it didn't go far enough in hammering Microsoft's anticompetitive "moat" practices.
    - batty_alex 2y ago
      Yeah, except the bundling wasn't the problem. It was that Microsoft was using their size to build a giant moat around IE. If you wanted modern features, it was all on IE and behind their proprietary scripting languages (vbscript, jscript, mshtml, activex controls) This was all part of the anti-competitive embrace, extend, extinguish strategy that was so common at Microsoft then. They would offer a tool that was "close" to a popular standard (javascript, html), then extend it with their own tooling (jscript, mshtml), and finally they would replace those with a proprietary toolchain (vbscript, activex controls) That meant the entire market moved to IE and it ate up almost all the market share overnight, even though it was a dumpster fire of a browser compared to the competition
  - chucke1992 2y ago
    Except the end conclusion was that "paying for a browser is stupid".
    - trelane 2y ago
      The end conclusion was "having a single superdominant proprietary browser is stupid." This probably extends to other communications software like productivity apps. The only reason the Web exists as it does now is because of Firefox. Even with the ruling, Microsoft put IE into maintenance mode and disbanded the team once IE6 won. The only reason IE7 came about was because Netscape opened their source code, and eventually firefox started really gaining popularity. And that was only because it was a foundation and volunteers, not a proprietary business (otherwise it would have died like the others.) So you can thank the Netscape and Mozilla folks that the modern web isn't still IE6 with the state of the art being the marquee tag, ActiveX, and VBSctipt/ancient JavaScript.
- ClassyJacket 2y ago
  Does make much difference if all their competitors are already dead.
WheatMillington 2y ago
I use Teams every day for work, I'm not sure why it's considered so bad? It seems user friendly and useful, to me. Non-tech worker (finance).
- petre 2y ago
  Have you used anything else?
- jbm 2y ago
  In my case, because it crashes incessantly and its apps are all web applications bundled for a platform. None of them perform well. It is somehow worse than mIRC and I used that 30 years ago.
- DANmode 2y ago
  I've seen enough financial software to know that someone in your world may be used to slow, tire-fire software. In that context, maybe Teams is user-friendly and high-performance!
  - SassyBird 2y ago
    You must not have seen Bloomberg Terminal then. Most devs on this forum wouldn’t be even able to build anything this performant and ergonomic.
    - DANmode 2y ago
      True, Bloomberg Terminal is excellent. Is that the "exception that proves the rule"? What else ya got? Genuinely interested.
      - eggy 2y ago
        Bloomberg Terminal is a hardware/software dynamic duo! Reuters and Dow Jones have competitive packages too. Other software in finance: kdb, for time-series analytics [0]. AmiBroker - amazing tech analysis package, and AmiBroker Formula Language (AFL - found this because I like J and APL), an array-based PL with debugger built-in to the AmiBroker platform. Fast [1]. I have been programming since 1978 starting on a Commodore PET 2001, but I saw computers and programming as tools. I was studying neural nets and genetic algorithms in the early 90s. I gravitated to lean, simple and easy software, but somehow every software I use just seems so bloated, in-your-face, inefficient, that I have chosen simple tools to use now. I keep a J interpreter open on my desktop along with Frink as more-than-desktop calculators. I use a Home edition of Mathematica, the orginal notebook interface, that has so much curated data and built-in functions that what was once complicated is now a great ecosystem to do math, analysis, reports, engineering, etc. And, yes, Excel, no matter how much it is disparaged by programmers. I gave up Inventor and other CAD programs for Alibre Design (yes, I have SolveSpace on my toolbar for fun!). I am so glad I steered clear of IT/SW engineering/etc. after speaking to many in all parts of the industry. The tool is their job, not the thing the tool does. PS: I have run hundred-million-dollar construction jobs in SE Asia and MENA using WhatsApp in the field from my Samsung Note to annotate drawings, photos, etc. even though Slack and high-end PM programs were back in the office. [0] https://kx.com/products/kdb/ https://kx.com/products/kdb/ [1] https://www.amibroker.com/ https://www.amibroker.com/
an-allen 2y ago
Ive used Teams for years and its pretty darn good in my opinion. Sure it has its quirks and from time to time fails to work for the entire hemisphere of the planet - but I kinda like that feature!
dyauspitr 2y ago
Teams is no Google meet but definitely better than zoom.

PM_me_your_math 2y ago

[dead]

EasyMark 2y ago

Don’t these “actions”usually include separating the products out the way the EU wants them?aka don’t include Teams in EU installs of MS office or don’t even include office at all? Otherwise a fine is useless.

sunaookami 2y ago
Doesn't matter if everyone already uses Teams and the damage is done. Look at Netscape vs IE.
- Auracle 2y ago
  Yet we’d absolutely balk at a computer or phone not coming with a browser by default nowadays. I don’t really think that ruling was on the right side of history.
  - Qwertious 2y ago
    That's because the browser is a de-facto OS, which occurred only due to a sheer lack of actual OS market innovation - Debian had a package manager 20 years ago, Windows didn't until 2019. Browsers succeeded because apps ("websites") abstracted away the download/install process in a user friendly fashion. That ruling's only fault was that it didn't go far enough in hammering Microsoft's anticompetitive "moat" practices.
  - batty_alex 2y ago
    Yeah, except the bundling wasn't the problem. It was that Microsoft was using their size to build a giant moat around IE. If you wanted modern features, it was all on IE and behind their proprietary scripting languages (vbscript, jscript, mshtml, activex controls) This was all part of the anti-competitive embrace, extend, extinguish strategy that was so common at Microsoft then. They would offer a tool that was "close" to a popular standard (javascript, html), then extend it with their own tooling (jscript, mshtml), and finally they would replace those with a proprietary toolchain (vbscript, activex controls) That meant the entire market moved to IE and it ate up almost all the market share overnight, even though it was a dumpster fire of a browser compared to the competition
- chucke1992 2y ago
  Except the end conclusion was that "paying for a browser is stupid".
  - trelane 2y ago
    The end conclusion was "having a single superdominant proprietary browser is stupid." This probably extends to other communications software like productivity apps. The only reason the Web exists as it does now is because of Firefox. Even with the ruling, Microsoft put IE into maintenance mode and disbanded the team once IE6 won. The only reason IE7 came about was because Netscape opened their source code, and eventually firefox started really gaining popularity. And that was only because it was a foundation and volunteers, not a proprietary business (otherwise it would have died like the others.) So you can thank the Netscape and Mozilla folks that the modern web isn't still IE6 with the state of the art being the marquee tag, ActiveX, and VBSctipt/ancient JavaScript.
ClassyJacket 2y ago
Does make much difference if all their competitors are already dead.

WheatMillington 2y ago

I use Teams every day for work, I'm not sure why it's considered so bad? It seems user friendly and useful, to me. Non-tech worker (finance).

petre 2y ago
Have you used anything else?
jbm 2y ago
In my case, because it crashes incessantly and its apps are all web applications bundled for a platform. None of them perform well. It is somehow worse than mIRC and I used that 30 years ago.
DANmode 2y ago
I've seen enough financial software to know that someone in your world may be used to slow, tire-fire software. In that context, maybe Teams is user-friendly and high-performance!
- SassyBird 2y ago
  You must not have seen Bloomberg Terminal then. Most devs on this forum wouldn’t be even able to build anything this performant and ergonomic.
  - DANmode 2y ago
    True, Bloomberg Terminal is excellent. Is that the "exception that proves the rule"? What else ya got? Genuinely interested.
    - eggy 2y ago
      Bloomberg Terminal is a hardware/software dynamic duo! Reuters and Dow Jones have competitive packages too. Other software in finance: kdb, for time-series analytics [0]. AmiBroker - amazing tech analysis package, and AmiBroker Formula Language (AFL - found this because I like J and APL), an array-based PL with debugger built-in to the AmiBroker platform. Fast [1]. I have been programming since 1978 starting on a Commodore PET 2001, but I saw computers and programming as tools. I was studying neural nets and genetic algorithms in the early 90s. I gravitated to lean, simple and easy software, but somehow every software I use just seems so bloated, in-your-face, inefficient, that I have chosen simple tools to use now. I keep a J interpreter open on my desktop along with Frink as more-than-desktop calculators. I use a Home edition of Mathematica, the orginal notebook interface, that has so much curated data and built-in functions that what was once complicated is now a great ecosystem to do math, analysis, reports, engineering, etc. And, yes, Excel, no matter how much it is disparaged by programmers. I gave up Inventor and other CAD programs for Alibre Design (yes, I have SolveSpace on my toolbar for fun!). I am so glad I steered clear of IT/SW engineering/etc. after speaking to many in all parts of the industry. The tool is their job, not the thing the tool does. PS: I have run hundred-million-dollar construction jobs in SE Asia and MENA using WhatsApp in the field from my Samsung Note to annotate drawings, photos, etc. even though Slack and high-end PM programs were back in the office. [0] https://kx.com/products/kdb/ https://kx.com/products/kdb/ [1] https://www.amibroker.com/ https://www.amibroker.com/

an-allen 2y ago

Ive used Teams for years and its pretty darn good in my opinion. Sure it has its quirks and from time to time fails to work for the entire hemisphere of the planet - but I kinda like that feature!

dyauspitr 2y ago

Teams is no Google meet but definitely better than zoom.