4 ms·

In Italy is now illegal to send your kids to school alone before they turn 14, it's now legally child abandonment. Even if the school is few hundreds meters fro

In Italy is now illegal to send your kids to school alone before they turn 14, it's now legally child abandonment. Even if the school is few hundreds meters from your house. I went to school alone since my second day of elementary school, in Japan kids cross Tokyo streets at the same age. I have given math lessons for two decades and during that timespan kids have changed a lot due to how much parents changed. It went quickly from "if he doesn't listen you slap him hard" to "how dares the teacher give him a bad grade". I have brought that topic with some people my age on a programming board and all fellow devs surprisingly told me they agreed, that it is child abandonment and streets are dangerous. I feel like such over protection makes for young adults that are absolutely unprepared for the harshness of real life.

graemep 2y ago
That is insane! I had taken my kids out of school by that age, but they would go to places alone much younger than that - depending on where we lived, the time of day etc.
- _zoltan_ 2y ago
  if you don't mind me asking, why take them out? did you homeschool them?
  - epolanski 2y ago
    Will never understand homeschooling, social (and even survival) skills are the most important to learn when young imho.
    - polymatter 2y ago
      And they can be learnt outside of school just as well. I'll never understand how readily people are to accept schooling.
      - bluGill 2y ago
        I hear this all the time, but so far every time I've met a home schooled kid they show that lack of socialization. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it is so rare that I doubt any home schooled kid is. Sure they will have a lot of kids, but that is not the same. Do they interact with kids that are different? Poor, rich? Different religion? Different political background? (note that many private school suffer from the same problem - generally not as bad as home schools, but it is easy to find private schools that don't really socialize kids well either.)
        alt227 2y ago
        I fully agree with you, however.... > Do they interact with kids that are different? Poor, rich? Different religion? Different political background? This is often the main reason that parents take them out of school in the first place.
    - adolph 2y ago
      Schools seem like a poor place to learn social skills unless one plans to live out Lord of the Flies later in life.
      - epolanski 2y ago
        Life is tough and the dynamics of the book are common in real life.
t0bia_s 2y ago
Isn't Italy a country where "mama hotels" come from? There was some statistic showing that average age of man leaving parents house is 39 years or so. I was going to alone to elementary school since second day as well. I had 2 younger siblings, it was not possible for my parents to take me at school at that time. Nowadays, having siblings is not common when US fertility rate is 1.6 and in EU 1.4 per woman. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/children-per-woman-un?tab=chart&time=1988..latest&country=OWID_WRL~Europe+%28UN%29~USA https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/children-per-woman-un?tab...
- arlort 2y ago
  39 feels too high, but yeah, it's one of the worst, and depending on the statistic the worst outright, in Europe. In 2022 the average was 30 years https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/ddn-20230904-1 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/d... A significant factor in that, beyond cultural ones, is the fact that it's quite expensive to buy/rent, especially given the high youth unemployment
  - mensetmanusman 2y ago
    These unemployed folks could literally be building their own homes with the right institutional policies and support.
    - epolanski 2y ago
      On which money?
      - mensetmanusman 2y ago
        The power of debt and helping an economy grow faster than the debt growth rate. A healthy society has a good roi, Italy is dying as is.
        t0bia_s 2y ago
tda 2y ago
> In Italy is now illegal to send your kids to school alone before they turn 14, it's now legally child abandonment I find your claim very hard to believe, can you back this up? I did some searching and could not find anything to back up your claim.
- epolanski 2y ago
  Sure I do. Even leaving them alone at home is a felony. There have been sentences already. https://www.brocardi.it/codice-penale/libro-secondo/titolo-xii/capo-i/art591.html https://www.brocardi.it/codice-penale/libro-secondo/titolo-x...
  - novok 2y ago
    And now the fertility rate of Italy will go down even further, as less will bother to have children.
  - uklusi 2y ago
    [dead]
  - sumeno 2y ago
    Where are the examples? The only ones linked on that page are for someone who left his disabled son in the car for many hours, someone leaving a 9 month old alone, and someone abandoning their elderly disabled mother
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
_zoltan_ 2y ago
In Switzerland kids are expected to go to school alone from primary school, but I've seen kids to the Kindergarten alone as well (5-6 yo). It's normal.
ordu 2y ago
> streets are dangerous. I have a vague hypothesis that people's mind have a detector of a danger, and mind adjust sensitivity of the detector to get some specific average value of danger. The safer our streets, the more sensitive detector becomes, so the perceived level of danger remains the same.
- kridsdale3 2y ago
  Most mental processes follow this return-to-the-mean style of homeostatis.
mensetmanusman 2y ago
You are experiencing the power of television/media for sowing division. The more you watch, the more misinformed about the mean you are :)
noneeeed 2y ago
That's wild. 13 is so old. In the UK it's completely normal for most secondary kids (11+) to travel to school on their own, and many younger kids will go to primary on their own. We live about 10 minutes from school. My eldest is 9 and in the penultimate year of primary school. He walks home and I meet him half way (mostly as an excuse to go for a walk), he's fine. From next year he'll probably go by himself half the time. The only concerns I have are around crossing the road. And even with that I'm aware that my worries are overblown, we've taught him how to cross carefully. He will be fine. I can understand if you live in a rough neighbourhood, or where the roads are really terrible for crossing, but making it a blanket rule is ridiculous.
ska 2y ago
> and streets are dangerous. In most places I've lived, streets are objectively less dangerous than they were a few decades ago in all aspects except traffic density, which is a mixed bag. In places with poor urban design, I can see the argument that street (crossing, particular) is high risk for say 6-8 year olds. In places with better design, the idea that a 8 year old, let alone a 14 year old, shouldn't be able to navigate a reasonable distance by themselves seems pretty crazy.

graemep 2y ago

That is insane! I had taken my kids out of school by that age, but they would go to places alone much younger than that - depending on where we lived, the time of day etc.

_zoltan_ 2y ago
if you don't mind me asking, why take them out? did you homeschool them?
- epolanski 2y ago
  Will never understand homeschooling, social (and even survival) skills are the most important to learn when young imho.
  - polymatter 2y ago
    And they can be learnt outside of school just as well. I'll never understand how readily people are to accept schooling.
    - bluGill 2y ago
      I hear this all the time, but so far every time I've met a home schooled kid they show that lack of socialization. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it is so rare that I doubt any home schooled kid is. Sure they will have a lot of kids, but that is not the same. Do they interact with kids that are different? Poor, rich? Different religion? Different political background? (note that many private school suffer from the same problem - generally not as bad as home schools, but it is easy to find private schools that don't really socialize kids well either.)
      - alt227 2y ago
        I fully agree with you, however.... > Do they interact with kids that are different? Poor, rich? Different religion? Different political background? This is often the main reason that parents take them out of school in the first place.
  - adolph 2y ago
    Schools seem like a poor place to learn social skills unless one plans to live out Lord of the Flies later in life.
    - epolanski 2y ago
      Life is tough and the dynamics of the book are common in real life.

t0bia_s 2y ago

Isn't Italy a country where "mama hotels" come from? There was some statistic showing that average age of man leaving parents house is 39 years or so. I was going to alone to elementary school since second day as well. I had 2 younger siblings, it was not possible for my parents to take me at school at that time. Nowadays, having siblings is not common when US fertility rate is 1.6 and in EU 1.4 per woman. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/children-per-woman-un?tab=chart&time=1988..latest&country=OWID_WRL~Europe+%28UN%29~USA https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/children-per-woman-un?tab...

arlort 2y ago
39 feels too high, but yeah, it's one of the worst, and depending on the statistic the worst outright, in Europe. In 2022 the average was 30 years https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/ddn-20230904-1 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/d... A significant factor in that, beyond cultural ones, is the fact that it's quite expensive to buy/rent, especially given the high youth unemployment
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  These unemployed folks could literally be building their own homes with the right institutional policies and support.
  - epolanski 2y ago
    On which money?
    - mensetmanusman 2y ago
      The power of debt and helping an economy grow faster than the debt growth rate. A healthy society has a good roi, Italy is dying as is.
      - t0bia_s 2y ago

tda 2y ago

> In Italy is now illegal to send your kids to school alone before they turn 14, it's now legally child abandonment I find your claim very hard to believe, can you back this up? I did some searching and could not find anything to back up your claim.

epolanski 2y ago
Sure I do. Even leaving them alone at home is a felony. There have been sentences already. https://www.brocardi.it/codice-penale/libro-secondo/titolo-xii/capo-i/art591.html https://www.brocardi.it/codice-penale/libro-secondo/titolo-x...
- novok 2y ago
  And now the fertility rate of Italy will go down even further, as less will bother to have children.
- uklusi 2y ago
  [dead]
- sumeno 2y ago
  Where are the examples? The only ones linked on that page are for someone who left his disabled son in the car for many hours, someone leaving a 9 month old alone, and someone abandoning their elderly disabled mother
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

_zoltan_ 2y ago

In Switzerland kids are expected to go to school alone from primary school, but I've seen kids to the Kindergarten alone as well (5-6 yo). It's normal.

ordu 2y ago

> streets are dangerous. I have a vague hypothesis that people's mind have a detector of a danger, and mind adjust sensitivity of the detector to get some specific average value of danger. The safer our streets, the more sensitive detector becomes, so the perceived level of danger remains the same.

kridsdale3 2y ago
Most mental processes follow this return-to-the-mean style of homeostatis.

mensetmanusman 2y ago

You are experiencing the power of television/media for sowing division. The more you watch, the more misinformed about the mean you are :)

noneeeed 2y ago

That's wild. 13 is so old. In the UK it's completely normal for most secondary kids (11+) to travel to school on their own, and many younger kids will go to primary on their own. We live about 10 minutes from school. My eldest is 9 and in the penultimate year of primary school. He walks home and I meet him half way (mostly as an excuse to go for a walk), he's fine. From next year he'll probably go by himself half the time. The only concerns I have are around crossing the road. And even with that I'm aware that my worries are overblown, we've taught him how to cross carefully. He will be fine. I can understand if you live in a rough neighbourhood, or where the roads are really terrible for crossing, but making it a blanket rule is ridiculous.

ska 2y ago

> and streets are dangerous. In most places I've lived, streets are objectively less dangerous than they were a few decades ago in all aspects except traffic density, which is a mixed bag. In places with poor urban design, I can see the argument that street (crossing, particular) is high risk for say 6-8 year olds. In places with better design, the idea that a 8 year old, let alone a 14 year old, shouldn't be able to navigate a reasonable distance by themselves seems pretty crazy.