7 ms·

EGAIR – European Guild for Artificial Intelligence Regulation

46 points by Rant423 2y ago

throwthrowuknow 2y ago
[flagged]
- jasonvorhe 2y ago
  Yeah, these evil Europeans! Oh, wait: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/04/29/biden-harris-administration-announces-key-ai-actions-180-days-following-president-bidens-landmark-executive-order/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases...
- spookie 2y ago
  Why? What's so bad about this?
Bluebirt 2y ago
This collective of stooges of the European content industry seems to be somewhat irrelevant. Never even heard of one of their "prominent" supporters. This seems like one of the thousand attempts to protect the very mediocre European domestic content industry. As a German, I have seen so many of such initiatives, often even funded by universities or state near bodies.
- raverbashing 2y ago
  Thanks for actually reading the article, and yes, my opinion is kinda similar here It will be the same story as with Spotify, they will be happy to license it for a bit company for pennies which then again will license it upstream for a big amount
- iamsaitam 2y ago
  Mediocre European domestic content industry? You must be thinking of a very specific niche, when it comes to fine arts and music Europe has been a leader since ever.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    Unfortunately those big and famous European artists are all dead for decades/centuries. Kinda difficult to monetize today. Not that we should enable that. Mozart, Beethoven, Vivaldi and Bach are cool, but who should be making money now from their IP? I'd say nobody, it should already be part of CC IMHO.
- sofixa 2y ago
  Mediocre by which metric? In music, fine arts, video games, photography there are tons of extremely successful European content producers. Cinema/TV are also quite big too (in no small part thanks to EU legislation incentivising it, but it's top notch quality so who cares, win-win-win).
- peoplefromibiza 2y ago
  > Never even heard of one of their "prominent" supporters no surprise here, you don't seem the type to appreciate art, in any form. I guess you don't even watch Netflix... > very mediocre European domestic content industry Or maybe this is an attempt by artists to protect their works from being exploited by big corporations in exchange for nothing. Which is fine to me, even if their work really were mediocre, nobody can deprive authors of their rights.
- Rant423 2y ago
  > Never even heard of one of their "prominent" supporters. That's entirely on you. There are some big names in the (european) comic book industry.
Am4TIfIsER0ppos 2y ago
They're readying their sabots to throw in the machinery.
- ganzuul 2y ago
  I have a wrench engineered specifically for that purpose. DIN standard and regulatory capture soon.
frvdh 2y ago
what the fresh hell is this now? What kind of unrealistic and dumb regulations will they now release with yet another costly initiative that European taxpayers don't even want or know exist
- JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
  We'll be fine. We’re not that stupid, but thanks for caring about us.
  - guesswho_ 2y ago
    EU is free to live in a open air museum. Problem is that, such regulations give ideas to other governments.
    - peoplefromibiza 2y ago
      > Problem is that, such regulations give ideas to other governments That because Europe has always been the front runner when it's about advancing the human species and where the best ideas, sooner or later, always win.
- arlort 2y ago
  > dumb regulations will they now release with yet another costly initiative that European taxpayers don't even want or know exist Since this is a private organization the best guess is none
constantcrying 2y ago
Copyright is such nonsense. No, you don't have a right that humans machines/can't learn from your artistry, that is just absurd.
- peoplefromibiza 2y ago
  but they have the right to not let Disney use it for free, without giving anything back to anybody. Don't they?
doingtheiroming 2y ago
It's amusing that they actually use the word guild. If the medieval guilds had their way London would still only have one bridge. The irony here is that creatives have an advantage that workers in every other industry lack. Humans value and will continue to value artisinally produced goods. Creatives will always have that in a way that 18th Century weavers and spinners did not. That appreciation also leads to the creative industries being subsidised essentially everywhere in a way that is likely to increase over time rather than decreasing. Will the rise of AI reduce opportunities for creatives? Almost certainly, but unlike essentially all other industries, it won't be wiped out by the rise of automation because humans won't stop liking things that are created by humans. As in music, there will be a shift to performance where customers / clients are engaged in the creative process. In many ways, it will be a return to something like the golden age of portraiture as people pay for engagement. There are huge opportunities for creatives in the age of AI to create new art forms, created in new ways for new kinds of consumer. Creatives can choose to engage with that or to throw sabots. As London's liverymen show, guilds cannot stop the tide, the opportunity is to become something new that floats on the rising waters.
- chucke1992 2y ago
  > If the medieval guilds had their way London would still only have one bridge Damn, this phrase is gold.
  - 1oooqooq 2y ago
    it's a neo liberal dogma. if it weren't from guilds all towers and bridges would have collapsed and Maritime trade world never have happened. then, many centuries later, and land owner elite capture, the guilds become in England just an extension of the peerage system and then it becomes what that phrase above describes. btw most medical labour organizations today work like that protectionism scheme and nobody complain much.
    - doingtheiroming 2y ago
      It might well be neoliberal dogma but the rose that got walked through London last week by the Watermen is a reminder that it is also true. People should complain much more about doctors’ guilds. There are limits on how many doctors can be trained in the US and the U.K. largely as a result of lobbying by doctors’ guilds. They’re called professional associations these days but let’s not pretend they confine themselves to enforcing professional standards.
TheAceOfHearts 2y ago
I keep thinking that copyright lasts too long. It seems to me like any regulation around AI training is most likely to benefit a small handful of giant corporations, which will be the only ones that can afford to license content and train newer models. And the small handful of mega corporations that own the rights to most modern media will get their payday. In the end culture ends up being owned and controlled by a few big corporate interests. I'm sympathetic to artists that want to exclude their works from giant training datasets that primarily end up benefiting the big players in AI without giving anything back. In a way, the first big digital data heist on mankind was executed by social media. Founders of various social media sites became extremely rich thanks to regular people's content being posted and shared (often illegally), without giving anything back to creators.
- wslh 2y ago
  Seems like the "Cobra Effect" all over again [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive
- k__ 2y ago
  We need one that prevents companies like Disney.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    This. And Google, and Microsoft, and Meta, etc.
- llm_trw 2y ago
  We've already reached peak data and high quality datasets provide phenomal performance improvements. The tech itself will push for gatekeepers that create the mountains of training data required.
CaptainFever 2y ago
The manifesto, in summary: 1. Create a new type of copyright called "training right". 2. This "training right" also applies to names. 3. This "training right" also applies to all usage with AI, even if it doesn't involve training (e.g. as an input to the AI software, such as Img2Img). 4. All AI-generated materials to be captioned as such, and all their activities catalogued and logged. 5. Public domain is no longer public domain (public domain has no "training rights" by default), and freely licensed media is no longer freely licensed (freely licensed media has no "training rights" by default) because "it would not have been possible to foresee its use in a dataset to train an AI model".
- ronsor 2y ago
  Thank you for the summary. Now I can instantly tell this is a garbage proposal.
hoseja 2y ago
How about an EGAI first my dudes. I keep getting embarrassed to share a continent with these people.
- adlpz 2y ago
  It's time we accept we won't be much more than a glorified theme park in a few decades. Either that, or we stop complaining and start acting. Maybe it's that we're just the same as these EGAIR people?
ImHereToVote 2y ago
I find people care way too much about material consequences. People should just care about ideals, no matter the actual consequences. This is morally right, it doesn't matter what will happen in the material world. We will always have God and spirituality to comfort us.
chucke1992 2y ago
Europe is hell bent on being left behind techwise eh?
- _Algernon_ 2y ago
  If not diving headfirst into technology fueled feudalism is being left behind, then sure.
- iamsaitam 2y ago
  Europe, unlike the US, doesn't outsource all its ethical concerns.
- nope1000 2y ago
  Since this is an association of creatives that will be left behind anyway, even if all AI-companies were european, that comment doesn't really make sense. The american SAG-AFTRA also protested some usage of AI and you wouldn't really say that Hollywood Actors wanna be left behind - quite the opposite actually.
  - chucke1992 2y ago
    Hollywood Actors are doing what they can to preserve their existence but eventually they will also be left behind - you can't stop the progress.
    - nope1000 2y ago
      Maybe. I wouldn't call the idea of big tech having even more influence on our culture and entertainment progress though. Sounds horrible to me.
      - chucke1992 2y ago
        it is no different from what we have right now. With big tech you will just have more opportunities to do something yourself rather than paying for "hollywood papa" or bend the knee to disney.
quectophoton 2y ago
This talks about licenses and stuff, but it seems to forget what the current status quo is. > People: I don't want my stuff to be used to train models. > Companies: To use our service you grant us perpetual license to use your stuff in whatever way we want, and also the right to sublicense so we can sell your stuff to others while granting them the same rights. > People: Sure, here you go! Here's my art/code/voice/face/photos/videos/telemetry! > Companies: [use data according to the license that was granted to them] > People: pikachu_face.jpg So enforcing what the manifesto wants to enforce wouldn't change much, if anything at all. Disclaimer: I have pirated others' stuff (e.g. anime, manga, novels, music, I have shared memes with others (that's distribution), etc), so I can't complain when others pirate my stuff without being a hypocrite. The most I can do myself is call them out for profiting off it.
- quonn 2y ago
  So? You can't sign a contract to sell your liver either. A broad license like that should not be obtainable by merely having the user click a checkbox.
  - quectophoton 2y ago
    Repeating myself, that's the status quo. Companies already are doing what they say they are doing, even if it's unenforceable. The profit from doing so is more than the liabilities from any lawsuit might be receiving. History shows that creating more legalese text won't add any more teeth. A specific example is how 90% of websites[1] are in violation[2] of the GDPR already. The manifesto raises a good point about data not protected by copyright; but one can argue that models created from copyrighted content, what most artists I see are complaining about, are already in violation of copyright due to being derivative works (IANAL), yet already-existing copyright laws aren't helping[3]. So they way I understand this manifesto is, they are not adding anything new for copyrighted works (AFAIK, IANAL), but they are taking away rights from public domain works (let's see how that plays out with Disney, for example). Hopefully this additional context clarifies where I'm coming from. [1]: I'm making up that number but I'm probably lowballing it anyway. [2]: Example: https://pkg.go.dev https://pkg.go.dev [3]: But I bet if someone made a model from TV shows, now suddenly the already-existing copyright law would magically work for those specific cases. So basically, these randos without power are making a law that will only be enforced by those with power.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
frachmalwarum 2y ago
Is there another guild that lobbies for AI and against copyright monopolies?
mdrzn 2y ago
"Currently 8.371 people signed the manifesto. (updated 2023/11/04)" hasn't been updated in a while?
Rant423 2y ago
I posted the website which seems somehow not updated; this reel is how it was brought to my attention: https://www.instagram.com/p/C8l-9RbshIE/ https://www.instagram.com/p/C8l-9RbshIE/

46 points by Rant423 2y ago

throwthrowuknow 2y ago

[flagged]

jasonvorhe 2y ago
Yeah, these evil Europeans! Oh, wait: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/04/29/biden-harris-administration-announces-key-ai-actions-180-days-following-president-bidens-landmark-executive-order/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases...
spookie 2y ago
Why? What's so bad about this?

Bluebirt 2y ago

This collective of stooges of the European content industry seems to be somewhat irrelevant. Never even heard of one of their "prominent" supporters. This seems like one of the thousand attempts to protect the very mediocre European domestic content industry. As a German, I have seen so many of such initiatives, often even funded by universities or state near bodies.

raverbashing 2y ago
Thanks for actually reading the article, and yes, my opinion is kinda similar here It will be the same story as with Spotify, they will be happy to license it for a bit company for pennies which then again will license it upstream for a big amount
iamsaitam 2y ago
Mediocre European domestic content industry? You must be thinking of a very specific niche, when it comes to fine arts and music Europe has been a leader since ever.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  Unfortunately those big and famous European artists are all dead for decades/centuries. Kinda difficult to monetize today. Not that we should enable that. Mozart, Beethoven, Vivaldi and Bach are cool, but who should be making money now from their IP? I'd say nobody, it should already be part of CC IMHO.
sofixa 2y ago
Mediocre by which metric? In music, fine arts, video games, photography there are tons of extremely successful European content producers. Cinema/TV are also quite big too (in no small part thanks to EU legislation incentivising it, but it's top notch quality so who cares, win-win-win).
peoplefromibiza 2y ago
> Never even heard of one of their "prominent" supporters no surprise here, you don't seem the type to appreciate art, in any form. I guess you don't even watch Netflix... > very mediocre European domestic content industry Or maybe this is an attempt by artists to protect their works from being exploited by big corporations in exchange for nothing. Which is fine to me, even if their work really were mediocre, nobody can deprive authors of their rights.
Rant423 2y ago
> Never even heard of one of their "prominent" supporters. That's entirely on you. There are some big names in the (european) comic book industry.

Am4TIfIsER0ppos 2y ago

They're readying their sabots to throw in the machinery.

ganzuul 2y ago
I have a wrench engineered specifically for that purpose. DIN standard and regulatory capture soon.

frvdh 2y ago

what the fresh hell is this now? What kind of unrealistic and dumb regulations will they now release with yet another costly initiative that European taxpayers don't even want or know exist

JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
We'll be fine. We’re not that stupid, but thanks for caring about us.
- guesswho_ 2y ago
  EU is free to live in a open air museum. Problem is that, such regulations give ideas to other governments.
  - peoplefromibiza 2y ago
    > Problem is that, such regulations give ideas to other governments That because Europe has always been the front runner when it's about advancing the human species and where the best ideas, sooner or later, always win.
arlort 2y ago
> dumb regulations will they now release with yet another costly initiative that European taxpayers don't even want or know exist Since this is a private organization the best guess is none

constantcrying 2y ago

Copyright is such nonsense. No, you don't have a right that humans machines/can't learn from your artistry, that is just absurd.

peoplefromibiza 2y ago
but they have the right to not let Disney use it for free, without giving anything back to anybody. Don't they?

doingtheiroming 2y ago

It's amusing that they actually use the word guild. If the medieval guilds had their way London would still only have one bridge. The irony here is that creatives have an advantage that workers in every other industry lack. Humans value and will continue to value artisinally produced goods. Creatives will always have that in a way that 18th Century weavers and spinners did not. That appreciation also leads to the creative industries being subsidised essentially everywhere in a way that is likely to increase over time rather than decreasing. Will the rise of AI reduce opportunities for creatives? Almost certainly, but unlike essentially all other industries, it won't be wiped out by the rise of automation because humans won't stop liking things that are created by humans. As in music, there will be a shift to performance where customers / clients are engaged in the creative process. In many ways, it will be a return to something like the golden age of portraiture as people pay for engagement. There are huge opportunities for creatives in the age of AI to create new art forms, created in new ways for new kinds of consumer. Creatives can choose to engage with that or to throw sabots. As London's liverymen show, guilds cannot stop the tide, the opportunity is to become something new that floats on the rising waters.

chucke1992 2y ago
> If the medieval guilds had their way London would still only have one bridge Damn, this phrase is gold.
- 1oooqooq 2y ago
  it's a neo liberal dogma. if it weren't from guilds all towers and bridges would have collapsed and Maritime trade world never have happened. then, many centuries later, and land owner elite capture, the guilds become in England just an extension of the peerage system and then it becomes what that phrase above describes. btw most medical labour organizations today work like that protectionism scheme and nobody complain much.
  - doingtheiroming 2y ago
    It might well be neoliberal dogma but the rose that got walked through London last week by the Watermen is a reminder that it is also true. People should complain much more about doctors’ guilds. There are limits on how many doctors can be trained in the US and the U.K. largely as a result of lobbying by doctors’ guilds. They’re called professional associations these days but let’s not pretend they confine themselves to enforcing professional standards.

TheAceOfHearts 2y ago

I keep thinking that copyright lasts too long. It seems to me like any regulation around AI training is most likely to benefit a small handful of giant corporations, which will be the only ones that can afford to license content and train newer models. And the small handful of mega corporations that own the rights to most modern media will get their payday. In the end culture ends up being owned and controlled by a few big corporate interests. I'm sympathetic to artists that want to exclude their works from giant training datasets that primarily end up benefiting the big players in AI without giving anything back. In a way, the first big digital data heist on mankind was executed by social media. Founders of various social media sites became extremely rich thanks to regular people's content being posted and shared (often illegally), without giving anything back to creators.

wslh 2y ago
Seems like the "Cobra Effect" all over again [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive
k__ 2y ago
We need one that prevents companies like Disney.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  This. And Google, and Microsoft, and Meta, etc.
llm_trw 2y ago
We've already reached peak data and high quality datasets provide phenomal performance improvements. The tech itself will push for gatekeepers that create the mountains of training data required.

CaptainFever 2y ago

The manifesto, in summary: 1. Create a new type of copyright called "training right". 2. This "training right" also applies to names. 3. This "training right" also applies to all usage with AI, even if it doesn't involve training (e.g. as an input to the AI software, such as Img2Img). 4. All AI-generated materials to be captioned as such, and all their activities catalogued and logged. 5. Public domain is no longer public domain (public domain has no "training rights" by default), and freely licensed media is no longer freely licensed (freely licensed media has no "training rights" by default) because "it would not have been possible to foresee its use in a dataset to train an AI model".

ronsor 2y ago
Thank you for the summary. Now I can instantly tell this is a garbage proposal.

hoseja 2y ago

How about an EGAI first my dudes. I keep getting embarrassed to share a continent with these people.

adlpz 2y ago
It's time we accept we won't be much more than a glorified theme park in a few decades. Either that, or we stop complaining and start acting. Maybe it's that we're just the same as these EGAIR people?

ImHereToVote 2y ago

I find people care way too much about material consequences. People should just care about ideals, no matter the actual consequences. This is morally right, it doesn't matter what will happen in the material world. We will always have God and spirituality to comfort us.

chucke1992 2y ago

Europe is hell bent on being left behind techwise eh?

_Algernon_ 2y ago
If not diving headfirst into technology fueled feudalism is being left behind, then sure.
iamsaitam 2y ago
Europe, unlike the US, doesn't outsource all its ethical concerns.
nope1000 2y ago
Since this is an association of creatives that will be left behind anyway, even if all AI-companies were european, that comment doesn't really make sense. The american SAG-AFTRA also protested some usage of AI and you wouldn't really say that Hollywood Actors wanna be left behind - quite the opposite actually.
- chucke1992 2y ago
  Hollywood Actors are doing what they can to preserve their existence but eventually they will also be left behind - you can't stop the progress.
  - nope1000 2y ago
    Maybe. I wouldn't call the idea of big tech having even more influence on our culture and entertainment progress though. Sounds horrible to me.
    - chucke1992 2y ago
      it is no different from what we have right now. With big tech you will just have more opportunities to do something yourself rather than paying for "hollywood papa" or bend the knee to disney.

quectophoton 2y ago

This talks about licenses and stuff, but it seems to forget what the current status quo is. > People: I don't want my stuff to be used to train models. > Companies: To use our service you grant us perpetual license to use your stuff in whatever way we want, and also the right to sublicense so we can sell your stuff to others while granting them the same rights. > People: Sure, here you go! Here's my art/code/voice/face/photos/videos/telemetry! > Companies: [use data according to the license that was granted to them] > People: pikachu_face.jpg So enforcing what the manifesto wants to enforce wouldn't change much, if anything at all. Disclaimer: I have pirated others' stuff (e.g. anime, manga, novels, music, I have shared memes with others (that's distribution), etc), so I can't complain when others pirate my stuff without being a hypocrite. The most I can do myself is call them out for profiting off it.

quonn 2y ago
So? You can't sign a contract to sell your liver either. A broad license like that should not be obtainable by merely having the user click a checkbox.
- quectophoton 2y ago
  Repeating myself, that's the status quo. Companies already are doing what they say they are doing, even if it's unenforceable. The profit from doing so is more than the liabilities from any lawsuit might be receiving. History shows that creating more legalese text won't add any more teeth. A specific example is how 90% of websites[1] are in violation[2] of the GDPR already. The manifesto raises a good point about data not protected by copyright; but one can argue that models created from copyrighted content, what most artists I see are complaining about, are already in violation of copyright due to being derivative works (IANAL), yet already-existing copyright laws aren't helping[3]. So they way I understand this manifesto is, they are not adding anything new for copyrighted works (AFAIK, IANAL), but they are taking away rights from public domain works (let's see how that plays out with Disney, for example). Hopefully this additional context clarifies where I'm coming from. [1]: I'm making up that number but I'm probably lowballing it anyway. [2]: Example: https://pkg.go.dev https://pkg.go.dev [3]: But I bet if someone made a model from TV shows, now suddenly the already-existing copyright law would magically work for those specific cases. So basically, these randos without power are making a law that will only be enforced by those with power.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

frachmalwarum 2y ago

Is there another guild that lobbies for AI and against copyright monopolies?

mdrzn 2y ago

"Currently 8.371 people signed the manifesto. (updated 2023/11/04)" hasn't been updated in a while?

Rant423 2y ago

I posted the website which seems somehow not updated; this reel is how it was brought to my attention: https://www.instagram.com/p/C8l-9RbshIE/ https://www.instagram.com/p/C8l-9RbshIE/