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> The difference (or at least what would be argued as a difference) is that you have no other choice with Apple (Amazon maybe in a similar situation). > If I d

> The difference (or at least what would be argued as a difference) is that you have no other choice with Apple (Amazon maybe in a similar situation). > If I didn't like AirBNB I could use VRBO/whatever else, or I could use both even. Read what you wrote again, and think about it. If you don't like AirBnB you can use one of the competitors, but there are no competitors to Apple? Would you consider that you might have a blind spot to something very obvious?

arccy 2y ago
For AirBnB (temporary lodging), if you don't like it, typically you're only stuck with it for a few days and you can make a different choice afterwards. Phones, for many people, are something they will use for years so they're essentially locked in a lot of the time. It's more like long term rentals, where the renter usually gets stronger protections too.
crowcroft 2y ago
I think we're defining markets differently which is where this is debatable. If you say that the App Store is an extension of the iPhone and you're buying into that when you buy a phone, sure I can see the argument that the App Store by default has no competitors on the iPhone and people are agreeing to that when they buy an iPhone/develop for the iPhone, and so the competition is Google (and by extension the Play store. I just don't think we should accept the tight coupling of hardware and software distribution by default though. Even then if you do, the strongest argument for Apple gives us a duopoly that both exhibit strong anti-competitive behaviours. I do have some sympathy for Apple here though. When Nintendo takes tight control over distribution on the switch is that also a monopoly? When your product essentially becomes a utility though I think some form of regulation ends up being good for society as a whole.
lmm 2y ago
> If you don't like AirBnB you can use one of the competitors, but there are no competitors to Apple? There isn't enough competition. Apple is in a monopolistic market position. AirBNB isn't, at least not yet. That's a contingent fact about the current state of affairs, but I think it's true - there's a lot of pressure to be on Apple, whereas there's not much pressure to be on AirBNB.
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  Why is Apple in a monopolistic position and why is AirBnB not? The effect of AirBnB on everyday life of people and the economy is in my opinion at least a thousand times larger than any effect that Apple has.
  - hollerith 2y ago
    How can that be when at least 30% of consumers visiting airbnb.com do so using Apple hardware, OS and browser?
  - lmm 2y ago
    > The effect of AirBnB on everyday life of people and the economy is in my opinion at least a thousand times larger than any effect that Apple has. How do you figure? I'd say the effect of AirBnB is pretty much zero; they're an interchangeable provider in what's fundamentally a commoditised business. If you can't or don't want to go to an AirBnB then you go to OwnersDirect or Booking or Agoda or worst case someone's individual website, and you have a virtually identical experience. And if you're a property owner you also don't care and probably list your place on a bunch of different sites.
    - carlosjobim 2y ago
      There are thousands of cities and towns all over the world, where short term rentals – accelerated by AirBnB – has made it impossible for young workers to afford to live where they were born. Real estate prices and rent prices are much more important in the everyday life for all of us, than all information technology combined. Unless you are a multimillionaire in tech stocks. But there aren't so many of them around. A normal worker today in the US or Europe could if they want afford to buy all top Apple devices or equivalent PC devices, as well as every paid app on the App store. That same normal worker in the US or Europe today can never afford to buy a home, unless he/she goes into lifelong debt, or gets help from family that owns real estate.
      - lmm 2y ago
avianlyric 2y ago
Difference is that AirBnB hosts can put their properties on multiple short let services, and access broadly the same market. The same simply doesn’t apply to App on iPhone. AirBnB would only be equivalent if it was impossible for hosts to list their properties in multiple places and AirBnB customers where effective tied into the AirBnB platform where they would have do something ridiculous like change their electricity supplier to use an AirBnB competitor (because for some reason AirBnb have figured how to build a tightly integrated ecosystem of utilities and services that effectively force you to use them all together to get the most benefit). And I say this as someone who’s fallen a long way down the Apple rabbit hole, and quite likes it down here. If multiple options for app stores and payment mechanisms existed, I would probably stick with Apple and happily pay a premium, because I value the convenience and peace of mind that comes from only having to trust Apple with my data. But that doesn’t mean that I think Apples behaviour is any reasonable or acceptable.

arccy 2y ago

For AirBnB (temporary lodging), if you don't like it, typically you're only stuck with it for a few days and you can make a different choice afterwards. Phones, for many people, are something they will use for years so they're essentially locked in a lot of the time. It's more like long term rentals, where the renter usually gets stronger protections too.

crowcroft 2y ago

I think we're defining markets differently which is where this is debatable. If you say that the App Store is an extension of the iPhone and you're buying into that when you buy a phone, sure I can see the argument that the App Store by default has no competitors on the iPhone and people are agreeing to that when they buy an iPhone/develop for the iPhone, and so the competition is Google (and by extension the Play store. I just don't think we should accept the tight coupling of hardware and software distribution by default though. Even then if you do, the strongest argument for Apple gives us a duopoly that both exhibit strong anti-competitive behaviours. I do have some sympathy for Apple here though. When Nintendo takes tight control over distribution on the switch is that also a monopoly? When your product essentially becomes a utility though I think some form of regulation ends up being good for society as a whole.

lmm 2y ago

> If you don't like AirBnB you can use one of the competitors, but there are no competitors to Apple? There isn't enough competition. Apple is in a monopolistic market position. AirBNB isn't, at least not yet. That's a contingent fact about the current state of affairs, but I think it's true - there's a lot of pressure to be on Apple, whereas there's not much pressure to be on AirBNB.

carlosjobim 2y ago
Why is Apple in a monopolistic position and why is AirBnB not? The effect of AirBnB on everyday life of people and the economy is in my opinion at least a thousand times larger than any effect that Apple has.
- hollerith 2y ago
  How can that be when at least 30% of consumers visiting airbnb.com do so using Apple hardware, OS and browser?
- lmm 2y ago
  > The effect of AirBnB on everyday life of people and the economy is in my opinion at least a thousand times larger than any effect that Apple has. How do you figure? I'd say the effect of AirBnB is pretty much zero; they're an interchangeable provider in what's fundamentally a commoditised business. If you can't or don't want to go to an AirBnB then you go to OwnersDirect or Booking or Agoda or worst case someone's individual website, and you have a virtually identical experience. And if you're a property owner you also don't care and probably list your place on a bunch of different sites.
  - carlosjobim 2y ago
    There are thousands of cities and towns all over the world, where short term rentals – accelerated by AirBnB – has made it impossible for young workers to afford to live where they were born. Real estate prices and rent prices are much more important in the everyday life for all of us, than all information technology combined. Unless you are a multimillionaire in tech stocks. But there aren't so many of them around. A normal worker today in the US or Europe could if they want afford to buy all top Apple devices or equivalent PC devices, as well as every paid app on the App store. That same normal worker in the US or Europe today can never afford to buy a home, unless he/she goes into lifelong debt, or gets help from family that owns real estate.
    - lmm 2y ago

avianlyric 2y ago

Difference is that AirBnB hosts can put their properties on multiple short let services, and access broadly the same market. The same simply doesn’t apply to App on iPhone. AirBnB would only be equivalent if it was impossible for hosts to list their properties in multiple places and AirBnB customers where effective tied into the AirBnB platform where they would have do something ridiculous like change their electricity supplier to use an AirBnB competitor (because for some reason AirBnb have figured how to build a tightly integrated ecosystem of utilities and services that effectively force you to use them all together to get the most benefit). And I say this as someone who’s fallen a long way down the Apple rabbit hole, and quite likes it down here. If multiple options for app stores and payment mechanisms existed, I would probably stick with Apple and happily pay a premium, because I value the convenience and peace of mind that comes from only having to trust Apple with my data. But that doesn’t mean that I think Apples behaviour is any reasonable or acceptable.