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A wealthy "investor" in a rigged game-- a company backed by half a billion dollars in taxpayer loan guarantees-- gets a new toy car. A car for which there is n

A wealthy "investor" in a rigged game-- a company backed by half a billion dollars in taxpayer loan guarantees-- gets a new toy car. A car for which there is no market and is worse for the environment than regular cars, as it relies on toxic batteries and an inefficient power grid that is majority coal burning.

cgs1019 14y ago
So many citations needed
- OstiaAntica 14y ago
  Tesla gets crony capitalist, Solyndra-type loan with the worst terms possible for taxpayers: http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=53001&pageid=&pagename= http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=53001&#3... http://techcrunch.com/2009/06/23/the-government-comes-through-for-tesla-with-a-465-million-loan-for-its-electric-sedan/ http://techcrunch.com/2009/06/23/the-government-comes-throug... Coal is majority of the U.S. power grid: http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/coalvswind/c01.html http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/coalvswind/c01.html Tesla batteries are cleaner than older versions, but they contain some Cobalt, and Lithium has many impacts and risks for humans.
  - rjtavares 14y ago
    I can't find the half billion figure for Tesla in that article (only for Fisker). Also, Tesla is a public company and therefore discloses their finantials. Their total debt is 270M, and they have 280M in cash (therefore, negative net debt).
    - OstiaAntica 14y ago
      Here's some more info: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-05-11/tesla-to-begin-repaying-u-dot-s-dot-loans-by-end-of-2012 http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-05-11/tesla-to-begin-r...
  - mtgx 14y ago
    I think they've just announced that they will be the first EV company to start paying their debt to the Government by the end of the year or something. If there's a good side to Government funding at all, it's this - investing in future technology that starts being useful right away, and can become mainstream within 10 years, which is a much better investment than subsidizing something like the oil industry for many decades, even though they keep scoring record profits.
    - twoodfin 14y ago
      If it can become useful and mainstream right away, why do they need government funding? And to point out the obvious, the Federal government extracts far more money from the oil companies (and hence oil consumers) by way of gas taxes than it pays out in subsidies.
      - rscale 14y ago
        As I see it, the government's real pay-off isn't Tesla paying back it's loans, but rather is the increase in energy policy flexibility that is gained if EVs become popular. If it's easier to provide energy security, that reduces military burden and also reduces our need to be involved in some unfriendly parts of the world. This payoff can't be captured by a private investor, so the government has incentive to invest earlier (and at higher risk levels) than private investors.
j_col 14y ago
Doesn't stop me from wanting to buy one (badly). If only they exported to Europe (hey, we send you our cars, so why not return the love?).
- OstiaAntica 14y ago
  Actually, Daimler-Mercedes bought 10% of Tesla a month before the U.S. government announced the loan. U.S. taxpayers are going to get the downside if the company fails but the European automaker gets the upside if it makes it. Well played.
- arethuza 14y ago
  Out of interest, what appeals to you about the Tesla S? It's clearly a lovely bit of technology but personally I can't get past the idea of the limited range (maximum of 300 miles) and obvious potential difficulties around recharging. [NB I'm in no way implying that anyone has to justify their tastes in cars (or anything else) - I'm just interested!]
  - rweba 14y ago
    I think 300 miles is plenty for most people (for me definitely). Most people drive less than 30 miles a day. I could even drive from DC to Pittsburgh without having to recharge (about 240 miles).
  - Retric 14y ago
    How often do you actually drive 200+ miles in a single day? Personally I have averaged 8k miles per year over the last 5 years and renting a car for the single long trip 340 miles I have made over that time period is not exactly a big deal. PS: People talk about how long it takes to get a full charge but if you can add 100 miles to the range in an hour while your stopped for lunch that bumps the daily range to 400 which would have more than covered me, but they can apparently get close to a full charge in 45 minutes.
    - arethuza 14y ago
      "How often do you actually drive 200+ miles in a single day?" I'm probably not an average driver - I don't drive at all during the week (walk to work and pretty much everywhere else, taxi to airport) but when I do drive to go walking/cycling/skiing the total I drive in a weekend is probably close to 300 miles - either in one day or parking car where recharging won't be available.
adventureful 14y ago
By that standard, we should never develop any new technology, because in the process of developing ANY new technology (including wind power and solar power) you're going to generate some level of pollution, including most likely using fossil fuels. By your standard, we can never progress at all, and must eventually regress to a primitive state. If that had been followed, we could have NEVER developed solar panels, and so many other important, cleaner technologies.
- OstiaAntica 14y ago
  Look, Tesla is billed as being greener than traditional autos but it is not. Drawing power from the grid is amazingly wasteful, and is often COAL. Trading oil for coal is not an environmental win-- Tesla's basic premise is a fraud. It reminds me of ethanol, another big government effort for the "environment" which makes things worse.
  - gfodor 14y ago
    Unlike traditional vehicles, Tesla's cars have the potential to be run on nuclear, solar, or other future green energy sources as more and more of those options come online. One would think this goes without saying.
  - stephengillie 14y ago
    Come drive in Washington State, where our grid is powered by the water which falls from our sky, as it flows back to the ocean. Also WSDOT just installed 7 EV charging stations along Interstate 5: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/News/2012/05/30_newevstations.htm http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/News/2012/05/30_newevstations.htm
  - nitrogen 14y ago
    AIUI coal is still cleaner per mile than gasoline.
  - schraeds 14y ago
    That is on the grid. One would assume in a couple years wind and solar would power the grid. Also, Tesla refers to itself as a technical innovator. Whether they succeed or not commercially, they will undoubtedly advance the date of electric vehicles. Elon Musk is an extraordinary visionary.
bdfh42 14y ago
Not exactly streaming out of the showrooms are they? They remain very much a toy but maybe one day someone will be able to build one that will work on a practical day to day basis. I feel there is a lot of mileage (pun intended) in the "diesel electric" combination where the juice is generated by an internal combustion engine that can be run very efficiently and then fed to the electric drive (with a small battery back-up for peak demands).
- bking 14y ago
  I am going to assume that your first comment is directed at a "lack of interest" from buyers in "Showrooms". I am pretty sure all the 2013 models have been pre-sold, and the waiting list for the next year is 1500 deep.
lisperforlife 14y ago
Probably once LFTRs come in or we find other ways to get away from coal for energy this would stop being a toy and get rid of our reliance on gasoline for ever.
rdl 14y ago
I think natural gas electrical generation + electric cars is a lot more likely to happen than natural gas vehicles (CNG or LNG). To the extent that NG displaces coal (which is already happening due to cost of NG being so low, at least in the US; we could accelerate it with regulation or long-term fuel contracts when building new plants), it's a big win. From a security (vs. environmental) perspective, burning US coal is superior to importing oil.
jonknee 14y ago
It's strange to say there is no market for a car that has a 10,000 person waiting list (with a $5,000 down payment to be on it) before anyone had actually gotten behind the wheel. I'd say that's pretty damn good and already close to a billion dollar market. Mercedes "only" sold 9,804 S-Class models in the US last year. Maybe they'll step it up.
jlgreco 14y ago
> "...it relies on toxic batteries..." http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycling-program http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-r...

cgs1019 14y ago

So many citations needed

OstiaAntica 14y ago
Tesla gets crony capitalist, Solyndra-type loan with the worst terms possible for taxpayers: http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=53001&pageid=&pagename= http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=53001&#3... http://techcrunch.com/2009/06/23/the-government-comes-through-for-tesla-with-a-465-million-loan-for-its-electric-sedan/ http://techcrunch.com/2009/06/23/the-government-comes-throug... Coal is majority of the U.S. power grid: http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/coalvswind/c01.html http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/coalvswind/c01.html Tesla batteries are cleaner than older versions, but they contain some Cobalt, and Lithium has many impacts and risks for humans.
- rjtavares 14y ago
  I can't find the half billion figure for Tesla in that article (only for Fisker). Also, Tesla is a public company and therefore discloses their finantials. Their total debt is 270M, and they have 280M in cash (therefore, negative net debt).
  - OstiaAntica 14y ago
    Here's some more info: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-05-11/tesla-to-begin-repaying-u-dot-s-dot-loans-by-end-of-2012 http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-05-11/tesla-to-begin-r...
- mtgx 14y ago
  I think they've just announced that they will be the first EV company to start paying their debt to the Government by the end of the year or something. If there's a good side to Government funding at all, it's this - investing in future technology that starts being useful right away, and can become mainstream within 10 years, which is a much better investment than subsidizing something like the oil industry for many decades, even though they keep scoring record profits.
  - twoodfin 14y ago
    If it can become useful and mainstream right away, why do they need government funding? And to point out the obvious, the Federal government extracts far more money from the oil companies (and hence oil consumers) by way of gas taxes than it pays out in subsidies.
    - rscale 14y ago
      As I see it, the government's real pay-off isn't Tesla paying back it's loans, but rather is the increase in energy policy flexibility that is gained if EVs become popular. If it's easier to provide energy security, that reduces military burden and also reduces our need to be involved in some unfriendly parts of the world. This payoff can't be captured by a private investor, so the government has incentive to invest earlier (and at higher risk levels) than private investors.

j_col 14y ago

Doesn't stop me from wanting to buy one (badly). If only they exported to Europe (hey, we send you our cars, so why not return the love?).

OstiaAntica 14y ago
Actually, Daimler-Mercedes bought 10% of Tesla a month before the U.S. government announced the loan. U.S. taxpayers are going to get the downside if the company fails but the European automaker gets the upside if it makes it. Well played.
arethuza 14y ago
Out of interest, what appeals to you about the Tesla S? It's clearly a lovely bit of technology but personally I can't get past the idea of the limited range (maximum of 300 miles) and obvious potential difficulties around recharging. [NB I'm in no way implying that anyone has to justify their tastes in cars (or anything else) - I'm just interested!]
- rweba 14y ago
  I think 300 miles is plenty for most people (for me definitely). Most people drive less than 30 miles a day. I could even drive from DC to Pittsburgh without having to recharge (about 240 miles).
- Retric 14y ago
  How often do you actually drive 200+ miles in a single day? Personally I have averaged 8k miles per year over the last 5 years and renting a car for the single long trip 340 miles I have made over that time period is not exactly a big deal. PS: People talk about how long it takes to get a full charge but if you can add 100 miles to the range in an hour while your stopped for lunch that bumps the daily range to 400 which would have more than covered me, but they can apparently get close to a full charge in 45 minutes.
  - arethuza 14y ago
    "How often do you actually drive 200+ miles in a single day?" I'm probably not an average driver - I don't drive at all during the week (walk to work and pretty much everywhere else, taxi to airport) but when I do drive to go walking/cycling/skiing the total I drive in a weekend is probably close to 300 miles - either in one day or parking car where recharging won't be available.

adventureful 14y ago

By that standard, we should never develop any new technology, because in the process of developing ANY new technology (including wind power and solar power) you're going to generate some level of pollution, including most likely using fossil fuels. By your standard, we can never progress at all, and must eventually regress to a primitive state. If that had been followed, we could have NEVER developed solar panels, and so many other important, cleaner technologies.

OstiaAntica 14y ago
Look, Tesla is billed as being greener than traditional autos but it is not. Drawing power from the grid is amazingly wasteful, and is often COAL. Trading oil for coal is not an environmental win-- Tesla's basic premise is a fraud. It reminds me of ethanol, another big government effort for the "environment" which makes things worse.
- gfodor 14y ago
  Unlike traditional vehicles, Tesla's cars have the potential to be run on nuclear, solar, or other future green energy sources as more and more of those options come online. One would think this goes without saying.
- stephengillie 14y ago
  Come drive in Washington State, where our grid is powered by the water which falls from our sky, as it flows back to the ocean. Also WSDOT just installed 7 EV charging stations along Interstate 5: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/News/2012/05/30_newevstations.htm http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/News/2012/05/30_newevstations.htm
- nitrogen 14y ago
  AIUI coal is still cleaner per mile than gasoline.
- schraeds 14y ago
  That is on the grid. One would assume in a couple years wind and solar would power the grid. Also, Tesla refers to itself as a technical innovator. Whether they succeed or not commercially, they will undoubtedly advance the date of electric vehicles. Elon Musk is an extraordinary visionary.

bdfh42 14y ago

Not exactly streaming out of the showrooms are they? They remain very much a toy but maybe one day someone will be able to build one that will work on a practical day to day basis. I feel there is a lot of mileage (pun intended) in the "diesel electric" combination where the juice is generated by an internal combustion engine that can be run very efficiently and then fed to the electric drive (with a small battery back-up for peak demands).

bking 14y ago
I am going to assume that your first comment is directed at a "lack of interest" from buyers in "Showrooms". I am pretty sure all the 2013 models have been pre-sold, and the waiting list for the next year is 1500 deep.

lisperforlife 14y ago

Probably once LFTRs come in or we find other ways to get away from coal for energy this would stop being a toy and get rid of our reliance on gasoline for ever.

rdl 14y ago

I think natural gas electrical generation + electric cars is a lot more likely to happen than natural gas vehicles (CNG or LNG). To the extent that NG displaces coal (which is already happening due to cost of NG being so low, at least in the US; we could accelerate it with regulation or long-term fuel contracts when building new plants), it's a big win. From a security (vs. environmental) perspective, burning US coal is superior to importing oil.

jonknee 14y ago

It's strange to say there is no market for a car that has a 10,000 person waiting list (with a $5,000 down payment to be on it) before anyone had actually gotten behind the wheel. I'd say that's pretty damn good and already close to a billion dollar market. Mercedes "only" sold 9,804 S-Class models in the US last year. Maybe they'll step it up.

jlgreco 14y ago

> "...it relies on toxic batteries..." http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycling-program http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-r...