4 ms·

Nobody is ever going to break up ASML. Apple is, in the grand scheme of things much less important. Much less.

mardifoufs 2y ago
Yes, but the US or the EU could've pushed for a break up when most of its EUV research was in the US. Market dominance wasn't built overnight. Yes, it would now be very hard to do. But that goes back to my original point, Europe does not really care about market dominance and fairness as long as European corporations are the ones dominating. As you said, if competition and market health was the objective...what ASML does is very important and shouldn't be left to a single corporation. They have complete market control over a critical part of something that's foundational to our modern economy. But I've never heard of a single European move to do something about that. SAP also has a de facto monopoly on entire parts of business processes and administration. Also, apple is in many ways just as important to the US government. So nobody is going to break them up, in the US at least. I'm not making a judgement here, I'm just saying that it's weird to expect the US to shoot itself in the foot, just like it would be weird to expect Europe to do the same. For the EU, the issue is more that Apple isn't European.
- talldayo 2y ago
  > what ASML does is very important and shouldn't be left to a single corporation. But that's not what market abuse is about. How is ASML impairing their competitors? What would breaking them up do, besides create a second ASML? You have to explain how separating ASML's IP helps the market or their customers. > So nobody is going to break them up, in the US at least. Didn't people say the same thing about Microsoft? "How would they get broken up over something as insignificant as Netscape?"
  - mardifoufs 2y ago
    Microsoft wasn't seen as a strategic asset back then, and the US wasn't in a semi cold war. In any case, I was talking about the concept of breaking up large national corporations moreso than this specific case, since the comment I was replying to was talking about how the US should start looking into breaking up Apple too. (Even then, I also gave SAP as an example, which perfectly fits the apple modus operandi of taking advantage of their closed ecosystem to destroy competition. but in a way that even apple couldn't ever dream of. And once you get into said ecosystem, you will start using the gigantic constellation of SAP products and be locked in to the extreme. Impairing competitors would be putting it lightly. Yet, no European probe either.)

Yes, but the US or the EU could've pushed for a break up when most of its EUV research was in the US. Market dominance wasn't built overnight. Yes, it would now be very hard to do. But that goes back to my original point, Europe does not really care about market dominance and fairness as long as European corporations are the ones dominating. As you said, if competition and market health was the objective...what ASML does is very important and shouldn't be left to a single corporation. They have complete market control over a critical part of something that's foundational to our modern economy. But I've never heard of a single European move to do something about that. SAP also has a de facto monopoly on entire parts of business processes and administration. Also, apple is in many ways just as important to the US government. So nobody is going to break them up, in the US at least. I'm not making a judgement here, I'm just saying that it's weird to expect the US to shoot itself in the foot, just like it would be weird to expect Europe to do the same. For the EU, the issue is more that Apple isn't European.

talldayo 2y ago
> what ASML does is very important and shouldn't be left to a single corporation. But that's not what market abuse is about. How is ASML impairing their competitors? What would breaking them up do, besides create a second ASML? You have to explain how separating ASML's IP helps the market or their customers. > So nobody is going to break them up, in the US at least. Didn't people say the same thing about Microsoft? "How would they get broken up over something as insignificant as Netscape?"
- mardifoufs 2y ago
  Microsoft wasn't seen as a strategic asset back then, and the US wasn't in a semi cold war. In any case, I was talking about the concept of breaking up large national corporations moreso than this specific case, since the comment I was replying to was talking about how the US should start looking into breaking up Apple too. (Even then, I also gave SAP as an example, which perfectly fits the apple modus operandi of taking advantage of their closed ecosystem to destroy competition. but in a way that even apple couldn't ever dream of. And once you get into said ecosystem, you will start using the gigantic constellation of SAP products and be locked in to the extreme. Impairing competitors would be putting it lightly. Yet, no European probe either.)