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> It's a category error to attribute intentions to algorithms because if an algorithm has intentions then so must numbers and arithmetic operations of numbers.
by drdeca 2y ago
> It's a category error to attribute intentions to algorithms because if an algorithm has intentions then so must numbers and arithmetic operations of numbers.
I don't see how that makes it a category error? Like, assuming that numbers and arithmetic operations of numbers don't have intentions, and assuming that algorithms having intentions would imply that numbers and arithmetic operations have them, afaict, we would only get the conclusion "algorithms do not have intentions", not "attributing intentions to algorithms is a category error".
Suppose we replace "numbers" with "atoms" and "computers" with "chemicals" in what you said.
This yields "As compositions of [atoms] there must be some [element (in the sense of part, not necessarily in the sense of an element of the periodic table)] in the composite with intentionality or the claim is that it is an emergent property in which case it becomes another unfounded belief in some magical quality of [chemicals] and I don't think [chemicals] have any magical qualities other than [...]." .
What about this substitution changes the validity of the argument? Is it because you do think that atoms or chemicals have "magical qualities" ? I don't think this is what you mean, or at least, you probably wouldn't call the properties in question "magical". (Though maybe you also disagree that people are comprised of atoms (That's not a jab. I would probably agree with that.)) So, let's try the original statement, but without "magical".
"As compositions of elementary operations there must be some element in the composite with intentionality or the claim is that it is an emergent property in which case it becomes another unfounded belief in some [suitable-for-emergent-intentionality] quality of computers and I don't think computers have any [suitable-for-emergent-intentionality] qualities [(though they do have properties for allowing computations)]."
If you believe that humans are comprised of atoms, and that atoms lack intentionality, and that humans have intentionality, presumably you believe that atoms have [suitable-for-emergent-intentionality] qualities.
One thing I think is relevant here, is "we have nothing showing us that there exist [x]" and "it cannot be that there exists [x]" .
Even if we have nothing to demonstrate to us that numbers-and-operations-on-them have the suitable-for-emergent-intentionality qualities, that doesn't demonstrate that they don't.
That doesn't mean we should believe that they do. If you have strong priors that they don't, that seems fine. But I don't think you've really given much of a reason that others should be convinced that they don't?
- soloist11 2y agoI don't know what atoms and chemicals have to do with my argument but the substitutions you've made don't make sense and I would call it ill-typed. A composition of numbers is also a number but a composition of atoms is something else and not an atom so I didn't really follow the rest of your argument. Computers have a formal theory and to say that a computer has intentions and can think would be equivalent to supplying a constructive proof (program) demonstrating conformance to a specification for thought and intention. These don't exist so from a constructive perspective it is valid to say that all claims of computers and software having intentions and thoughts are simply magical, confused, non-constructive, and ill-typed beliefs.
- skissane 2y ago> A composition of numbers is also a number but a composition of atoms is something else and not an atom so I didn't really follow the rest of your argument. That's not true. To give a trivial example, a set or sequence of numbers is composed of numbers but is not itself a number. 2 is a number, but {2,3,4} is not a number. > Computers have a formal theory They don't. Yes, there is a formal theory mathematicians and theoretical computer scientists have developed to model how computers work. However, that formal theory is strictly speaking false for real world computers – at best we can say it is approximately true for them. Standard theoretical models of computation assume a closed system, determinism, and infinite time and space. Real world computers are an open system, are capable of indeterminism, and have strictly sub-infinite time and space. A theoretical computer and a real world computer are very different things – at best we can say that results from the former can sometimes be applied to the latter. There are theoretical models of computation that incorporate nondeterminism. However, I'd question whether the specific type of nondeterminism found in such models, is actually the same type of nondeterminism that real world computers have or can have. Even if you are right that a theoretical computer science computer can't have intentionality, you haven't demonstrated a real world computer can't have intentionality, because they are different things. You'd need to demonstrate that none of the real differences between the two could possibly grant one the intentionality the other lacks.
- 2y ago