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No. They can be fined into bankruptcy and effective non-existence, the executives can go to jail, but no, Boeing can't be seized because we have rule of law.

tracker1 2y ago
I'm still not sure how a company cannot be seized... A person can be seized and imprisoned... property can be seized... why is a company so dramatically different than property in general? Could all the property a company owns be seized as part of a penalty? And why couldn't a company be fined to a point it would effectively bankrupt said company? Edit: I'm pretty sure if a company started selling cocaine in the US, something would happen to seize and stop that company.
danaris 2y ago
> Boeing can't be seized because we have rule of law. That only follows to the extent that there isn't currently a law saying that a corporation can be seized due to massive malfeasance. If we passed a law providing for that as a punishment (or if there's already one on the books that fits, that you and I just aren't aware of) in clearly defined circumstances (or as clearly defined as such things ever are), then there would be no problem; it's not like there's a Constitutional right to never lose your corporation.
- slowmovintarget 2y ago
  There's a Constitutional right against undue property seizure. Prosecutors can liquidate assets used in a crime after a conviction, but there is no law that would permit the operation of Boeing, as a corporation, by the government, and any such law, would, thankfully, be unconstitutional. Powers of expropriation are the stuff of Communist dictatorships. "We don't do that here."
  - danaris 2y ago
    > there is no law that would permit the operation of Boeing, as a corporation, by the government, ...as we have both just been saying... > and any such law, would, thankfully, be unconstitutional. [Citation needed] If the government can liquidate assets used in a crime, then if "Boeing" commits crimes, it follows that the government should be able to liquidate Boeing, because the entire company is an asset, and the ones committing the crimes are, in any meaningful sense, the people in charge of Boeing. Using that asset. To commit the crimes. Given that, it seems to be a pretty huge stretch to claim that seizing such a company, and operating it (especially temporarily) for the public benefit, in order to both deny access to the fruits of the crime to its perpetrators, and prevent further such crimes, would be unconstitutional. It would also be massively less wasteful and destructive to the economy and the lives of the many innocent people working there to simply change out the criminal leadership for government-appointed caretakers rather than sell it all off. Again: I'm not saying there are any laws on the books that would permit this. I just think the idea that it is prohibited by the Constitution is utterly unsupported and, at best, an extraordinary claim.
    - 0xBDB 2y ago
      > [Citation needed] The combination of the Fifth Amendment takings clause and the Eighth Amendment excessive fines clause. The government can fine Boeing what we would consider a lot of money (perhaps even into the billions), but expropriation isn't permitted in the United States. If they want the rest of the company they can eminent domain it but that involves paying the shareholders market value (after decades of litigation).
0xBDB 2y ago
> They can be fined into bankruptcy and effective non-existence Not that either, for a company as large as Boeing, because of the Eighth Amendment excessive fines clause.

tracker1 2y ago

I'm still not sure how a company cannot be seized... A person can be seized and imprisoned... property can be seized... why is a company so dramatically different than property in general? Could all the property a company owns be seized as part of a penalty? And why couldn't a company be fined to a point it would effectively bankrupt said company? Edit: I'm pretty sure if a company started selling cocaine in the US, something would happen to seize and stop that company.

danaris 2y ago

> Boeing can't be seized because we have rule of law. That only follows to the extent that there isn't currently a law saying that a corporation can be seized due to massive malfeasance. If we passed a law providing for that as a punishment (or if there's already one on the books that fits, that you and I just aren't aware of) in clearly defined circumstances (or as clearly defined as such things ever are), then there would be no problem; it's not like there's a Constitutional right to never lose your corporation.

slowmovintarget 2y ago
There's a Constitutional right against undue property seizure. Prosecutors can liquidate assets used in a crime after a conviction, but there is no law that would permit the operation of Boeing, as a corporation, by the government, and any such law, would, thankfully, be unconstitutional. Powers of expropriation are the stuff of Communist dictatorships. "We don't do that here."
- danaris 2y ago
  > there is no law that would permit the operation of Boeing, as a corporation, by the government, ...as we have both just been saying... > and any such law, would, thankfully, be unconstitutional. [Citation needed] If the government can liquidate assets used in a crime, then if "Boeing" commits crimes, it follows that the government should be able to liquidate Boeing, because the entire company is an asset, and the ones committing the crimes are, in any meaningful sense, the people in charge of Boeing. Using that asset. To commit the crimes. Given that, it seems to be a pretty huge stretch to claim that seizing such a company, and operating it (especially temporarily) for the public benefit, in order to both deny access to the fruits of the crime to its perpetrators, and prevent further such crimes, would be unconstitutional. It would also be massively less wasteful and destructive to the economy and the lives of the many innocent people working there to simply change out the criminal leadership for government-appointed caretakers rather than sell it all off. Again: I'm not saying there are any laws on the books that would permit this. I just think the idea that it is prohibited by the Constitution is utterly unsupported and, at best, an extraordinary claim.
  - 0xBDB 2y ago
    > [Citation needed] The combination of the Fifth Amendment takings clause and the Eighth Amendment excessive fines clause. The government can fine Boeing what we would consider a lot of money (perhaps even into the billions), but expropriation isn't permitted in the United States. If they want the rest of the company they can eminent domain it but that involves paying the shareholders market value (after decades of litigation).

0xBDB 2y ago

> They can be fined into bankruptcy and effective non-existence Not that either, for a company as large as Boeing, because of the Eighth Amendment excessive fines clause.