6 ms·

Steam is one of the many app stores I can use. Not the only one. Meanwhile Apple forces their app store down their customers throat. And charges for the force

by hu3 2y ago

Steam is one of the many app stores I can use. Not the only one. Meanwhile Apple forces their app store down their customers throat. And charges for the forced privilege. Consoles are not general purpose devices. But I wouldn't mind if EU went after them as well

lolinder 2y ago
> Steam is one of the many app stores I can use. > Not the only one. A) For the video game consoles this isn't true, they have full control just like Apple does. B) Like I said, there are better hills to die on. App store monopoly is one that makes more sense to me (though I still actually disagree with the mainstream HN consensus on it).
- alt227 2y ago
  > A) For the video game consoles this isn't true, they have full control just like Apple does. You can still go to any physical retail store and buy a game developed by a 3rd party. Yes that 3rd Party company had to pay a license fee to release the game on the hardware but you can still choose where you want to buy that game from, including any sales or discounts that retailer might see fit to try to gain your custom.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    Which is a right that Apple was willing to concede, but people flipped out when they announced you'd still have to pay the fee. Consoles get a pass for things that Apple gets raked over the coals for. There's clearly something more going on than just "these specific behaviors are unacceptable always", which is the simplified take that gets popular on HN.
    - alt227 2y ago
      >Which is a right that Apple was willing to concede Begrudgly and in a way that is very much viewed as malicious compliance, hence them now being investigated for it. >but people flipped out when they announced you'd still have to pay the fee I agree with them When I buy an App from the app store, Apple should take a cut for providing the infrastructure, payment system etc, thats fair. If I am buying something from a company directly from their website or marketplace, for a service they provide in that app, why should I pay Apple a fee?
      - burnerthrow008 2y ago
        > If I am buying something from a company directly from their website or marketplace, for a service they provide in that app, why should I pay Apple a fee? Ok, but explain to me why it is ok for Sony to charge a license fee to release a game that is only sold in retail stores as physical copies, while it is not ok for Apple to charge a similar fee? The parent's point is that HN goes all frothy-mouthed about the $0.50/download fee from Apple, and then uses pretzel logic to justify why it is ok for Playstation/Xbox/Nintendo to do the exact same thing.
        alt227 2y ago
        I think that the issue here is that every person and their grandma has an iphone, and so they are a bigger target. Pretty much every single person in the western world has a mobile phone, and the majority of those are iPhones. No matter how hard you try to compare this to the console market, its apples and oranges. The amount of xboxes sold and the market they are sold to just pales in insignificance compared to Apples domination of the world. Also the gaming world has a much shittier nemesis, gambling. The loot box and microtransaction scandals have overshadowed any issues with store fees. I feel if these things hadnt been so big over the last decade, there would have been much more focus on the payment issues of app stores. As a kicker, I feel that the courts would probably argue that the console world is very specific to gaming, and therefore is a much more targetted audience. Phones have apps for everrything that run your life, hell you cant even get a bus ticket or do any banking where Im from if you dont have a smart phone. So it is much more of a lifestyle device which is required to live in the modern age, whereas consoles are purely entertainment.
        p_l 2y ago
        The main difference is that the agreement between Sony and publisher only covers publishers first sale of the material, and their agreements only cover direct revenue share / static prices per unit from publisher. It does not limit publisher in any way how they want to sell the physical copies, it does absolutely not apply to non-first-sale (depending on the structure of distribution, the box you see in a retail store might already be beyond first sale). It also does not setup any limits on publishers activities that do not involve Sony licensed IP. It's similar to how many vendors had revenue share licensing on their products in the past, which is legally distinct from flat percentage applied to distribution channel and limits on said distribution channel n.b. Sony has, apparently, since PS4 sometimes been cheaper to develop for, in terms of non-revenue-share pricing, than Apple - often providing no-cost loaners for smaller teams. source on Sony terms: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1821175/000149315220023938/ex10-22.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1821175/000149315220...
- paulmd 2y ago
  Steam also leans on the same anticompetitive "most-favored nation" agreements as Amazon. Sure, you don't have to list on Steam... but if you do, you better not try to go around their cut and list elsewhere at a lower price, either. They have very positive mindshare with gamers but at the end of the day gaben's not your buddy either.
  - inexcf 2y ago
    But you can sell steam keys with Valve taking a 0% cut.
    - jeffhuys 2y ago
      See the 2 sibling comments 10 mins before you
  - JohnnyMarcone 2y ago
    Steam lets you sell Steam keys directly or via a third party and they take a 0% cut. That's how places like greenman gaming, humble bundle, etc work. You still get to use all Steam's infrastructure but pay no fee.
    - paulmd 2y ago
      that's a mechanism intended to grant keys to reviewers and such, you can't use that as a primary transaction mechanism. steam has an unspecified threshold at which they will kick you off the platform for abusing that, they aren't there to be a free delivery platform for external sales and if it makes up a plurality of your sales they'll pull the plug. you'll note humble bundle isn't literally the only sales those publishers make on those games, or even a majority of their sales, and it's also something that's specially blessed by valve. if you pull that as a random shit publisher not through humble bundle you'll get kicked off.
- treeFall 2y ago
  >App store monopoly is one that makes more sense to me Am I misreading this, or are you advocating for a monopoly? In what world is a monopoly better for consumers?
criddell 2y ago
How is a console not a general purpose device? If I gave you a PS5 dev kit, what software would you be unable to port?
- zeta0134 2y ago
  It's mostly about intent: just about no one on the planet looks at the marketing for a PlayStation 5 and expects to be able to use it to file their taxes. That device is sold as a multimedia platform; that it happens to be a general purpose computer with software locks is irrelevant to it's stated purpose. The consumer is pretty well aware of what they're getting. Not so with your average Apple device with access to the App Store, outside of maybe the TVs these days. The iPad ad that made all the headlines recently was clearly trying to bill it as a general purpose everything device with few if any such limitations. In terms of how the devices are marketed to consumers, it's night and day, and that does make a huge difference when trying to determine if consumers have been mislead by shady business practices.
  - burnerthrow008 2y ago
    > just about no one on the planet looks at the marketing for a PlayStation 5 and expects to be able to use it to file their taxes Ah, this old chestnut of circular reasoning. It's not a general purpose computer because people think it isn't, so they don't use it as one because it's not a general purpose computer. > The consumer is pretty well aware of what they're getting. Is the consumer not well aware that iOS is a walled garden?
    - zeta0134 2y ago
      I should clarify that I don't personally hold this particular chestnut. A computer is a computer, and I'll remove the locks and run whatever software I please. I make homebrew games as a hobby, after all. But regulators don't tend to write laws based on the actual tech, as much as how it gets used. That's the disconnect, but it still helps to try to understand the other point of view.
  - criddell 2y ago
endisneigh 2y ago
> Consoles are not general purpose devices. But I wouldn't mind if EU went after them as Silly argument. All of the consoles support apps.

by hu3 2y ago

lolinder 2y ago

> Steam is one of the many app stores I can use. > Not the only one. A) For the video game consoles this isn't true, they have full control just like Apple does. B) Like I said, there are better hills to die on. App store monopoly is one that makes more sense to me (though I still actually disagree with the mainstream HN consensus on it).

alt227 2y ago
> A) For the video game consoles this isn't true, they have full control just like Apple does. You can still go to any physical retail store and buy a game developed by a 3rd party. Yes that 3rd Party company had to pay a license fee to release the game on the hardware but you can still choose where you want to buy that game from, including any sales or discounts that retailer might see fit to try to gain your custom.
- lolinder 2y ago
  Which is a right that Apple was willing to concede, but people flipped out when they announced you'd still have to pay the fee. Consoles get a pass for things that Apple gets raked over the coals for. There's clearly something more going on than just "these specific behaviors are unacceptable always", which is the simplified take that gets popular on HN.
  - alt227 2y ago
    >Which is a right that Apple was willing to concede Begrudgly and in a way that is very much viewed as malicious compliance, hence them now being investigated for it. >but people flipped out when they announced you'd still have to pay the fee I agree with them When I buy an App from the app store, Apple should take a cut for providing the infrastructure, payment system etc, thats fair. If I am buying something from a company directly from their website or marketplace, for a service they provide in that app, why should I pay Apple a fee?
    - burnerthrow008 2y ago
      > If I am buying something from a company directly from their website or marketplace, for a service they provide in that app, why should I pay Apple a fee? Ok, but explain to me why it is ok for Sony to charge a license fee to release a game that is only sold in retail stores as physical copies, while it is not ok for Apple to charge a similar fee? The parent's point is that HN goes all frothy-mouthed about the $0.50/download fee from Apple, and then uses pretzel logic to justify why it is ok for Playstation/Xbox/Nintendo to do the exact same thing.
      - alt227 2y ago
        I think that the issue here is that every person and their grandma has an iphone, and so they are a bigger target. Pretty much every single person in the western world has a mobile phone, and the majority of those are iPhones. No matter how hard you try to compare this to the console market, its apples and oranges. The amount of xboxes sold and the market they are sold to just pales in insignificance compared to Apples domination of the world. Also the gaming world has a much shittier nemesis, gambling. The loot box and microtransaction scandals have overshadowed any issues with store fees. I feel if these things hadnt been so big over the last decade, there would have been much more focus on the payment issues of app stores. As a kicker, I feel that the courts would probably argue that the console world is very specific to gaming, and therefore is a much more targetted audience. Phones have apps for everrything that run your life, hell you cant even get a bus ticket or do any banking where Im from if you dont have a smart phone. So it is much more of a lifestyle device which is required to live in the modern age, whereas consoles are purely entertainment.
      - p_l 2y ago
        The main difference is that the agreement between Sony and publisher only covers publishers first sale of the material, and their agreements only cover direct revenue share / static prices per unit from publisher. It does not limit publisher in any way how they want to sell the physical copies, it does absolutely not apply to non-first-sale (depending on the structure of distribution, the box you see in a retail store might already be beyond first sale). It also does not setup any limits on publishers activities that do not involve Sony licensed IP. It's similar to how many vendors had revenue share licensing on their products in the past, which is legally distinct from flat percentage applied to distribution channel and limits on said distribution channel n.b. Sony has, apparently, since PS4 sometimes been cheaper to develop for, in terms of non-revenue-share pricing, than Apple - often providing no-cost loaners for smaller teams. source on Sony terms: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1821175/000149315220023938/ex10-22.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1821175/000149315220...
paulmd 2y ago
Steam also leans on the same anticompetitive "most-favored nation" agreements as Amazon. Sure, you don't have to list on Steam... but if you do, you better not try to go around their cut and list elsewhere at a lower price, either. They have very positive mindshare with gamers but at the end of the day gaben's not your buddy either.
- inexcf 2y ago
  But you can sell steam keys with Valve taking a 0% cut.
  - jeffhuys 2y ago
    See the 2 sibling comments 10 mins before you
- JohnnyMarcone 2y ago
  Steam lets you sell Steam keys directly or via a third party and they take a 0% cut. That's how places like greenman gaming, humble bundle, etc work. You still get to use all Steam's infrastructure but pay no fee.
  - paulmd 2y ago
    that's a mechanism intended to grant keys to reviewers and such, you can't use that as a primary transaction mechanism. steam has an unspecified threshold at which they will kick you off the platform for abusing that, they aren't there to be a free delivery platform for external sales and if it makes up a plurality of your sales they'll pull the plug. you'll note humble bundle isn't literally the only sales those publishers make on those games, or even a majority of their sales, and it's also something that's specially blessed by valve. if you pull that as a random shit publisher not through humble bundle you'll get kicked off.
treeFall 2y ago
>App store monopoly is one that makes more sense to me Am I misreading this, or are you advocating for a monopoly? In what world is a monopoly better for consumers?

criddell 2y ago

How is a console not a general purpose device? If I gave you a PS5 dev kit, what software would you be unable to port?

zeta0134 2y ago
It's mostly about intent: just about no one on the planet looks at the marketing for a PlayStation 5 and expects to be able to use it to file their taxes. That device is sold as a multimedia platform; that it happens to be a general purpose computer with software locks is irrelevant to it's stated purpose. The consumer is pretty well aware of what they're getting. Not so with your average Apple device with access to the App Store, outside of maybe the TVs these days. The iPad ad that made all the headlines recently was clearly trying to bill it as a general purpose everything device with few if any such limitations. In terms of how the devices are marketed to consumers, it's night and day, and that does make a huge difference when trying to determine if consumers have been mislead by shady business practices.
- burnerthrow008 2y ago
  > just about no one on the planet looks at the marketing for a PlayStation 5 and expects to be able to use it to file their taxes Ah, this old chestnut of circular reasoning. It's not a general purpose computer because people think it isn't, so they don't use it as one because it's not a general purpose computer. > The consumer is pretty well aware of what they're getting. Is the consumer not well aware that iOS is a walled garden?
  - zeta0134 2y ago
    I should clarify that I don't personally hold this particular chestnut. A computer is a computer, and I'll remove the locks and run whatever software I please. I make homebrew games as a hobby, after all. But regulators don't tend to write laws based on the actual tech, as much as how it gets used. That's the disconnect, but it still helps to try to understand the other point of view.
- criddell 2y ago

endisneigh 2y ago

> Consoles are not general purpose devices. But I wouldn't mind if EU went after them as Silly argument. All of the consoles support apps.