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If you think that is bad, wait until we need to start decommissioning electric vehicles on scale. I've worked on fossil fuel vehicle EOL for quite a while and a

by bArray 2y ago

If you think that is bad, wait until we need to start decommissioning electric vehicles on scale. I've worked on fossil fuel vehicle EOL for quite a while and a very large amount of recycling happens, there is literally zero waste. Nobody I know wants to do the same for electric vehicles, they are simply too dangerous.

Maakuth 2y ago
The batteries shouldn't be taken apart without proper equipment and processes. Disconnecting them from the vehicle though is not that complicated. I think the decommissioned batteries are going to be sent to specialized facilities while the rest of the vehicles will go through the same recycling process as the ICE cars do now. Most of the battery material is going to recyclable and thus fairly valuable, so there's some economic incentive in there too.
mschuster91 2y ago
> If you think that is bad, wait until we need to start decommissioning electric vehicles on scale. There are plans on re-purposing these for grid storage or used-new packs for vehicles, or recycling them to make new batteries. Sadly Google is polluted with weird SEO blogs and other crap, so here's at least one report from a credible source [1]. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/29/heres-how-ev-batteries-can-be-given-a-second-life.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/29/heres-how-ev-batteries-can-b...
tecleandor 2y ago
I don't have a number, and probably it's completely unintuitive, but at least as of today I'm more concerned about disposable stuff, like one-use vape devices and that stuff, where also there's like little incentive to recycle. At least big (EV vehicle) batteries have a bigger value. Around Europe I'm seeying a bunch of companies testing and selling second hand EV car battery packs that are at 60 to 85% of their capacity. Some can be used to repair a car, some other for projects that aren't that concerned by the energy density per kg of the batteries (stationary deployments, for example at home). And they're real cheap.
Asmod4n 2y ago
The batteries used in cars sold today in the EU can be recycled by up to 95%, that’s good enough for me. Older lead acid batteries can be fully recycled, GM and Ford used those in their older EVs
sysadmindotfail 2y ago
>Nobody I know wants to do the same for electric vehicles, they are simply too dangerous. No offense but this is just wrong https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/dead-ev-batteries-turn-gold-with-us-incentives-2023-07-21/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/dead-e...
jillesvangurp 2y ago
Why would anyone in their right mind discard hundreds/thousands of $ of raw materials in a landfill? In a dead EV, the dead battery is the single most valuable thing for scrap yards to extract. Assuming it is actually dead. Mostly they get a second life in which case they are worth even more. In any case, EV batteries are already being recycled at pretty high rates. > Nobody I know wants to do the same for electric vehicles, they are simply too dangerous. Their loss. Not everybody is that nervous around some simple electronics. Most scrap yard dealers will train up in a hurry as soon as they realize that they have access to a valuable stream of batteries to pass on to re-cyclers who pay good dollars by the kilo. Most clued in owners will actually insist on getting compensated before handing over the valuable wrecked car with batteries included. Worth more than many still functioning old ICE cars. > I've worked on fossil fuel vehicle EOL for quite a while and a very large amount of recycling happens If that's the case for relatively worthless things like steel and lead from lead acid batteries, what do you think will happen when scrap yards start processing lithium ion batteries with a way higher kilo price? The obvious of course.
audunw 2y ago
> Nobody I know wants to do the same for electric vehicles, they are simply too dangerous. Okay? But there are PLENTY of people who are willing to. There are already relatively large EV battery recycling operations up and running. There are already businesses repurposing old EV battery packs for stationary energy storage. EVs aren't THAT dangerous. You should have safety training to handle their batteries. But relevant safety training is something you need for almost all jobs that are even moderately complex these days. This kind of training is completely routine for all car mechanics in Norway now since 90% of new cars are EVs. I don't see any reason to think car mechanics in other countries are somehow less able to learn these things. There's no data to indicate that EVs are more dangerous than ICE. There's some risks that are eliminated (gasoline fuel fires, carbon monoxide poisoning) and some new risks (high battery voltage, battery fire). But all-in-all there is no data pointing to more deaths after the share of EVs in Norway hit 90% of car sales (and reaching 20-30% of cars on the road in many areas).
- itsoktocry 2y ago
  >There are already relatively large EV battery recycling operations up and running. There are already businesses repurposing old EV battery packs for stationary energy storage. These businesses are nascent, with unproven scale and business models. They might work. We want them to work. But we are a long way from saying "this is happening".
  - bArray 2y ago
    Exactly this. The current process for fossil fuel vehicle decommissioning is a relatively decentralised process. What we're talking about is a significant change to the way things are currently done. It may not be a very positive thing at all, especially as these processing plants will likely be expensive and centralised.

by bArray 2y ago

Maakuth 2y ago

The batteries shouldn't be taken apart without proper equipment and processes. Disconnecting them from the vehicle though is not that complicated. I think the decommissioned batteries are going to be sent to specialized facilities while the rest of the vehicles will go through the same recycling process as the ICE cars do now. Most of the battery material is going to recyclable and thus fairly valuable, so there's some economic incentive in there too.

mschuster91 2y ago

> If you think that is bad, wait until we need to start decommissioning electric vehicles on scale. There are plans on re-purposing these for grid storage or used-new packs for vehicles, or recycling them to make new batteries. Sadly Google is polluted with weird SEO blogs and other crap, so here's at least one report from a credible source [1]. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/29/heres-how-ev-batteries-can-be-given-a-second-life.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/29/heres-how-ev-batteries-can-b...

tecleandor 2y ago

I don't have a number, and probably it's completely unintuitive, but at least as of today I'm more concerned about disposable stuff, like one-use vape devices and that stuff, where also there's like little incentive to recycle. At least big (EV vehicle) batteries have a bigger value. Around Europe I'm seeying a bunch of companies testing and selling second hand EV car battery packs that are at 60 to 85% of their capacity. Some can be used to repair a car, some other for projects that aren't that concerned by the energy density per kg of the batteries (stationary deployments, for example at home). And they're real cheap.

Asmod4n 2y ago

The batteries used in cars sold today in the EU can be recycled by up to 95%, that’s good enough for me. Older lead acid batteries can be fully recycled, GM and Ford used those in their older EVs

sysadmindotfail 2y ago

>Nobody I know wants to do the same for electric vehicles, they are simply too dangerous. No offense but this is just wrong https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/dead-ev-batteries-turn-gold-with-us-incentives-2023-07-21/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/dead-e...

jillesvangurp 2y ago

Why would anyone in their right mind discard hundreds/thousands of $ of raw materials in a landfill? In a dead EV, the dead battery is the single most valuable thing for scrap yards to extract. Assuming it is actually dead. Mostly they get a second life in which case they are worth even more. In any case, EV batteries are already being recycled at pretty high rates. > Nobody I know wants to do the same for electric vehicles, they are simply too dangerous. Their loss. Not everybody is that nervous around some simple electronics. Most scrap yard dealers will train up in a hurry as soon as they realize that they have access to a valuable stream of batteries to pass on to re-cyclers who pay good dollars by the kilo. Most clued in owners will actually insist on getting compensated before handing over the valuable wrecked car with batteries included. Worth more than many still functioning old ICE cars. > I've worked on fossil fuel vehicle EOL for quite a while and a very large amount of recycling happens If that's the case for relatively worthless things like steel and lead from lead acid batteries, what do you think will happen when scrap yards start processing lithium ion batteries with a way higher kilo price? The obvious of course.

audunw 2y ago

> Nobody I know wants to do the same for electric vehicles, they are simply too dangerous. Okay? But there are PLENTY of people who are willing to. There are already relatively large EV battery recycling operations up and running. There are already businesses repurposing old EV battery packs for stationary energy storage. EVs aren't THAT dangerous. You should have safety training to handle their batteries. But relevant safety training is something you need for almost all jobs that are even moderately complex these days. This kind of training is completely routine for all car mechanics in Norway now since 90% of new cars are EVs. I don't see any reason to think car mechanics in other countries are somehow less able to learn these things. There's no data to indicate that EVs are more dangerous than ICE. There's some risks that are eliminated (gasoline fuel fires, carbon monoxide poisoning) and some new risks (high battery voltage, battery fire). But all-in-all there is no data pointing to more deaths after the share of EVs in Norway hit 90% of car sales (and reaching 20-30% of cars on the road in many areas).

itsoktocry 2y ago
>There are already relatively large EV battery recycling operations up and running. There are already businesses repurposing old EV battery packs for stationary energy storage. These businesses are nascent, with unproven scale and business models. They might work. We want them to work. But we are a long way from saying "this is happening".
- bArray 2y ago
  Exactly this. The current process for fossil fuel vehicle decommissioning is a relatively decentralised process. What we're talking about is a significant change to the way things are currently done. It may not be a very positive thing at all, especially as these processing plants will likely be expensive and centralised.