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It is not even access concentration the Jhana 1 description. It is "just" the natural joy that arises from doing wholesome states like ethical behavior or gener

It is not even access concentration the Jhana 1 description. It is "just" the natural joy that arises from doing wholesome states like ethical behavior or generosity or unconditional love. (Which is good! Really good! just lets not appropriate the term 'jhana') It is great people are discovering that there is a happiness within that is not dependent on getting things or things being a certain way and you can increase and cultivate wholesome states that are outside the sensory world. But the sort of description of so called "jhana" in the article misses it - it points to the feelings generated in the body. They are rather like a boat and its wake... the wake is the feelings but the boat is something else - they are the wholesome states. We don't focus on the feelings, rather keep driving the boat (focusing on our meditation object). Then ... boom... we suddenly hit a river bank and have no idea what happened. It's unmistakable. For instance with metta the boat would be the intention "may I be happy" the feelings are the by-product or wake. Jhana is proper like a boat that suddenly unexpectedly hits the shore... It rocks and blows the mind (and as the mind contains model of the world - it feels like the world shook a bit then froze). A good "geeks guide" is "Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond" written by someone who finished a physics degree at cambridge and spent 9 years with Ajahn Chah. If we instead mistake something else for "jhana" like some positive feels, we're going to be stuck cultivating a local maxima. It's not to say the practice is wrong, it's actually quite good. It's just not jhana. We should listen to the professional community just like we listen to the professionals of physics in academia, instead of some posts from people on the internet that have done a few 30 day retreats. But please do not call it jhana and have some humility ... these terms are central to some of the okdest institutions in the world and theres a professional community in the dharmic traditions who literally do this full time all over asia. If someone wants to hear a competent speaker who has done the necessary time and training at those institutions and is also trained in the conventional university system, someone like Ajahn Brahm (Theoretical Physics Cambridge) Beth Upton (Economics Cambridge) or Shalia Catherine or Sayadaw U Jagara

dnissley 2y ago
What do you think about twim jhanas, which are similarly "light"?
- derrida 2y ago
  I'm not that familiar with them but the people I know that do the traditional jhanas I think some think they are mistaking a profound state called "bhavanga" for jhana. (It's mentioned page 140 of Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond by Ajahn Brahm and in the first few pages of Pa Auks book as something often mistaken for jhana and nibanna - a sort of cessation).
burke 2y ago
I dunno, I think it’s worthwhile to acknowledge that this describes the (very?) shallow end of the pool but these language game land wars are profoundly uninteresting to me. This–and TWIM jhanas in general–certainly involve the arising of the relevant jhana factors. People feel real and somewhat life-changing experiences of piti, sukha, equanimity… are those, due to limited concentration, below some critical threshold to earn the name “jhana”? Sure there are reasonable arguments for this position but it’s just a language game. Both strong and weak versions of these states are real phenomena that lead to increases in wellbeing. Besides, it’s not even entirely clear that the earliest texts are actually describing something all _that_ much more concentrated than Nadia does, although the later visuddhimagga most certainly does, and those teachers certainly teach it. I’ve heard some teachers contrast Sutta-jhanas to visuddhimagga-jhanas and I think that’s a reasonable distinction.
- derrida 2y ago
  > these language game land wars "Energy" is also a "language game war" between internet posts on physics and professional physics. > This–and TWIM jhanas in general–certainly involve the arising of the relevant jhana factors. Yes. So someone suggested calling them "mindfulness of the jhana factors". Also the word for joy in several languages is "piti". We can talk of joy and happiness, and see it's not the same as jhana. Is any joy and happiness from non-sensory wholesome states jhana? No. > People feel real and somewhat life-changing experiences of piti, sukha, equanimity… are those, due to limited concentration, below some critical threshold to earn the name “jhana”? Yes I don't want to dismiss these states they are wholesome, just not jhana. Do cultivate joy in wholesome states! > Besides, it’s not even entirely clear that the earliest texts are actually describing something all _that_ much more concentrated than Nadia does Well, how do the early texts describe the insights that happen as a result of jhana? they are quite deep and quite challenging to conventional world view (just like if someone did an excellent physics experiment). Consider AN 9.42... senses disappear to the mind at the first jhana https://suttacentral.net/an9.42/en/sujato https://suttacentral.net/an9.42/en/sujato
  - burke 2y ago
    > Well, how do the early texts describe the insights that happen as a result of jhana? The main reference I can think of off the top of my head is something along the lines of “with a mind thus purified [by jhana] the meditator inclines the mind to [insight practice]”, which feels compatible with either the very strong Vsm version or the weaker end of loose interpretations of the suttas. Even a really really weak experience of J4-flavored equanimity still reduces stray selfing enough to make insight practice work better. Obviously this effect is magnified many many times by the pa auk style jhana states. Perhaps there are other specific claims I haven’t read. [edit to respond to AN reference in edit] interesting, first I’ve seen this one. On one hand it does seem to imply a slightly higher level of concentration than other suttas I’ve read but even here it only talks about elimination of desirable/arousing sensory phenomena, not the sense of “pretty much all sensual phenomena” that Vsm points to. I don’t actually have a super hard time squaring this with what Jhourney and TWIM teach.
burnished 2y ago
[flagged]
- derrida 2y ago
  They are good states and do it, wholesomestates are good joy in the wholesome is good.I am interested in not appropriating words that are well understood by communities for 100's of years and taking amateur internet posts about them as truth. Words like "Energy" should be taken as understood from the physics community, although we understand in certain contexts someone else may use that word in other ways. It's the same when it comes to the term "jhana".
  - burnished 2y ago
    Still, pass. Seems weird to fear standing on the shoulders of giants for fear of appropriation. And to be clear I think you sharing your opinion and expertise is great, theres just this element of 'leave it to the experts' when we are talking about a sort of bodily understanding that my culture seems to utterly lack that I disagree with.
thelittleone 2y ago
Isn't the goal 'may I be happy' at odds with the underlying philosophy as it ignores the reality that without sadness, we cannot understand being happy. Wouldn't 'may i be at peace' or 'may i be present' be more suitable? And even futher 'may I' is a wishing of a future state which is a attachment to a certain state and which also means we are not at peace nor present. If we constantly wish this, are we not missing the point?
- catchnear4321 2y ago
  the point is as artificial as any of the rest of it monkeys colliding in the dark, chittering about what they feel to “we” it is to flee it
lewispollard 2y ago
The description in brackets for each jhana, if that's what you're referring to, seem to be sourced from "dhammawiki.org". > But the sort of description of so called "jhana" in the article misses it - it points to the feelings generated in the body. I mean, they are referred to (the first 4 jhanas) as the "rupa jhanas" - that is, form or bodily jhanas. That's because they're coarse and involve sensations of the body and materiality. > We don't focus on the feelings, rather keep driving the boat (focusing on our meditation object). Then ... boom... we suddenly hit a river bank and have no idea what happened. It's unmistakable. I think the article may gloss over it a bit, but the author does seem to say this too - in that the meditation practice aspect of it is just a way of organising attention such that the jhana state is invoked (they describe it as like a "sneeze", in that there is an intentional, physical build up followed by an involuntary and hard-hitting release, and that they hit "hard and fast") - and then the practical technique aspect of the sitting is not really useful because the jhana takes over. That sounds pretty accurate to me, as a practitioner of Theravada for 10 years or so.
_yb2s 2y ago
This is what I expected just from the title- anytime I’ve seen the jhanas mentioned online most of the responses are “that’s not the jhanas, this person does not even understand what they are” and then the followup comments are each someone saying the same about the above commenter.

dnissley 2y ago

What do you think about twim jhanas, which are similarly "light"?

derrida 2y ago
I'm not that familiar with them but the people I know that do the traditional jhanas I think some think they are mistaking a profound state called "bhavanga" for jhana. (It's mentioned page 140 of Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond by Ajahn Brahm and in the first few pages of Pa Auks book as something often mistaken for jhana and nibanna - a sort of cessation).

burke 2y ago

I dunno, I think it’s worthwhile to acknowledge that this describes the (very?) shallow end of the pool but these language game land wars are profoundly uninteresting to me. This–and TWIM jhanas in general–certainly involve the arising of the relevant jhana factors. People feel real and somewhat life-changing experiences of piti, sukha, equanimity… are those, due to limited concentration, below some critical threshold to earn the name “jhana”? Sure there are reasonable arguments for this position but it’s just a language game. Both strong and weak versions of these states are real phenomena that lead to increases in wellbeing. Besides, it’s not even entirely clear that the earliest texts are actually describing something all _that_ much more concentrated than Nadia does, although the later visuddhimagga most certainly does, and those teachers certainly teach it. I’ve heard some teachers contrast Sutta-jhanas to visuddhimagga-jhanas and I think that’s a reasonable distinction.

derrida 2y ago
> these language game land wars "Energy" is also a "language game war" between internet posts on physics and professional physics. > This–and TWIM jhanas in general–certainly involve the arising of the relevant jhana factors. Yes. So someone suggested calling them "mindfulness of the jhana factors". Also the word for joy in several languages is "piti". We can talk of joy and happiness, and see it's not the same as jhana. Is any joy and happiness from non-sensory wholesome states jhana? No. > People feel real and somewhat life-changing experiences of piti, sukha, equanimity… are those, due to limited concentration, below some critical threshold to earn the name “jhana”? Yes I don't want to dismiss these states they are wholesome, just not jhana. Do cultivate joy in wholesome states! > Besides, it’s not even entirely clear that the earliest texts are actually describing something all _that_ much more concentrated than Nadia does Well, how do the early texts describe the insights that happen as a result of jhana? they are quite deep and quite challenging to conventional world view (just like if someone did an excellent physics experiment). Consider AN 9.42... senses disappear to the mind at the first jhana https://suttacentral.net/an9.42/en/sujato https://suttacentral.net/an9.42/en/sujato
- burke 2y ago
  > Well, how do the early texts describe the insights that happen as a result of jhana? The main reference I can think of off the top of my head is something along the lines of “with a mind thus purified [by jhana] the meditator inclines the mind to [insight practice]”, which feels compatible with either the very strong Vsm version or the weaker end of loose interpretations of the suttas. Even a really really weak experience of J4-flavored equanimity still reduces stray selfing enough to make insight practice work better. Obviously this effect is magnified many many times by the pa auk style jhana states. Perhaps there are other specific claims I haven’t read. [edit to respond to AN reference in edit] interesting, first I’ve seen this one. On one hand it does seem to imply a slightly higher level of concentration than other suttas I’ve read but even here it only talks about elimination of desirable/arousing sensory phenomena, not the sense of “pretty much all sensual phenomena” that Vsm points to. I don’t actually have a super hard time squaring this with what Jhourney and TWIM teach.

burnished 2y ago

[flagged]

derrida 2y ago
They are good states and do it, wholesomestates are good joy in the wholesome is good.I am interested in not appropriating words that are well understood by communities for 100's of years and taking amateur internet posts about them as truth. Words like "Energy" should be taken as understood from the physics community, although we understand in certain contexts someone else may use that word in other ways. It's the same when it comes to the term "jhana".
- burnished 2y ago
  Still, pass. Seems weird to fear standing on the shoulders of giants for fear of appropriation. And to be clear I think you sharing your opinion and expertise is great, theres just this element of 'leave it to the experts' when we are talking about a sort of bodily understanding that my culture seems to utterly lack that I disagree with.

thelittleone 2y ago

Isn't the goal 'may I be happy' at odds with the underlying philosophy as it ignores the reality that without sadness, we cannot understand being happy. Wouldn't 'may i be at peace' or 'may i be present' be more suitable? And even futher 'may I' is a wishing of a future state which is a attachment to a certain state and which also means we are not at peace nor present. If we constantly wish this, are we not missing the point?

catchnear4321 2y ago
the point is as artificial as any of the rest of it monkeys colliding in the dark, chittering about what they feel to “we” it is to flee it

lewispollard 2y ago

The description in brackets for each jhana, if that's what you're referring to, seem to be sourced from "dhammawiki.org". > But the sort of description of so called "jhana" in the article misses it - it points to the feelings generated in the body. I mean, they are referred to (the first 4 jhanas) as the "rupa jhanas" - that is, form or bodily jhanas. That's because they're coarse and involve sensations of the body and materiality. > We don't focus on the feelings, rather keep driving the boat (focusing on our meditation object). Then ... boom... we suddenly hit a river bank and have no idea what happened. It's unmistakable. I think the article may gloss over it a bit, but the author does seem to say this too - in that the meditation practice aspect of it is just a way of organising attention such that the jhana state is invoked (they describe it as like a "sneeze", in that there is an intentional, physical build up followed by an involuntary and hard-hitting release, and that they hit "hard and fast") - and then the practical technique aspect of the sitting is not really useful because the jhana takes over. That sounds pretty accurate to me, as a practitioner of Theravada for 10 years or so.

_yb2s 2y ago

This is what I expected just from the title- anytime I’ve seen the jhanas mentioned online most of the responses are “that’s not the jhanas, this person does not even understand what they are” and then the followup comments are each someone saying the same about the above commenter.