5 ms·

I think this startup-y way of tapping into meditation i pretty silly but also, idk maybe it's the way for us nerds to achieve these things?

pas 2y ago
there's no real difference between you, me, and Mr. Gautama in mental structure. circumstances of course matter, but instruction, especially the interactivity is decisive. yes, there's a practice element, to do the dissociative steps well, to get the right body sensations amplified with the right mental ones, etc. the start-up-y way is not better or worse for you if it works. the traditional way(s) work vy constraining as much of the circumstances as possible, so the originating mind state is "exactly" as the one the instructor had.
- kranner 2y ago
  I think the startuppy way might be a little worse, in terms of how it can set up more craving and comparison with others, particularly if you're convinced you need to experience the full Visuddhimagga jhanas to get the really real insight practice going, and others are ahead of you somehow. I've experienced both the Sutta jhanas (in a TWIM retreat) and the VM jhanas (spontaneously after a lot of practice). They're wonderful and the VM jhanas in particular really boost sensory clarity and concentration which is certainly helpful for insight practice, but a sustained practice or rather, sustained intention to practice well have been more helpful to me over the years.
- 0x1ceb00da 2y ago
  > there's no real difference between you, me, and Mr. Gautama in mental structure. This is just not true. There are athletes with sub 100ms reaction time. The average person is over twice of that. It only makes sense that there are meditative athletes whose abilities surpass those of the average guy.
  - saulpw 2y ago
    In your analogy, we are all capable of running (probably), even if some of us are better at it.
  - swayvil 2y ago
    The ancient meditation wizards of yore preferred to recruit those with "habitual one-pointed attention" (these days we call them aspergers etc). Because they are uncommonly good at concentration.
    - jackdawipper 2y ago
      lol, aspergers et al, are the opposite to good at concentrating.
      - swayvil 2y ago
        That is incorrect.
      - pas 2y ago
        it's not that simple. (neither meditation nor Aspergers [high-functioning autism].) there are at least a hundred[0] traditional techniques for meditation. one needs to find those that work. for someone with a highly monotropic autistic trait techniques that work with a singular focus are probably more well-suited, while someone with "kind of the opposite" (hello ADHD people) should try those that are more cognitively active, have mindfulness elements, and build rich imaginary worlds. [0] 112 in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vij%C3%B1%C4%81na_Bhairava_Tantra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vij%C3%B1%C4%81na_Bhairava_Tan...
        swayvil 2y ago
        Yeah monotropic. That's what I'm talking about.

pas 2y ago

there's no real difference between you, me, and Mr. Gautama in mental structure. circumstances of course matter, but instruction, especially the interactivity is decisive. yes, there's a practice element, to do the dissociative steps well, to get the right body sensations amplified with the right mental ones, etc. the start-up-y way is not better or worse for you if it works. the traditional way(s) work vy constraining as much of the circumstances as possible, so the originating mind state is "exactly" as the one the instructor had.

kranner 2y ago
I think the startuppy way might be a little worse, in terms of how it can set up more craving and comparison with others, particularly if you're convinced you need to experience the full Visuddhimagga jhanas to get the really real insight practice going, and others are ahead of you somehow. I've experienced both the Sutta jhanas (in a TWIM retreat) and the VM jhanas (spontaneously after a lot of practice). They're wonderful and the VM jhanas in particular really boost sensory clarity and concentration which is certainly helpful for insight practice, but a sustained practice or rather, sustained intention to practice well have been more helpful to me over the years.
0x1ceb00da 2y ago
> there's no real difference between you, me, and Mr. Gautama in mental structure. This is just not true. There are athletes with sub 100ms reaction time. The average person is over twice of that. It only makes sense that there are meditative athletes whose abilities surpass those of the average guy.
- saulpw 2y ago
  In your analogy, we are all capable of running (probably), even if some of us are better at it.
- swayvil 2y ago
  The ancient meditation wizards of yore preferred to recruit those with "habitual one-pointed attention" (these days we call them aspergers etc). Because they are uncommonly good at concentration.
  - jackdawipper 2y ago
    lol, aspergers et al, are the opposite to good at concentrating.
    - swayvil 2y ago
      That is incorrect.
    - pas 2y ago
      it's not that simple. (neither meditation nor Aspergers [high-functioning autism].) there are at least a hundred[0] traditional techniques for meditation. one needs to find those that work. for someone with a highly monotropic autistic trait techniques that work with a singular focus are probably more well-suited, while someone with "kind of the opposite" (hello ADHD people) should try those that are more cognitively active, have mindfulness elements, and build rich imaginary worlds. [0] 112 in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vij%C3%B1%C4%81na_Bhairava_Tantra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vij%C3%B1%C4%81na_Bhairava_Tan...
      - swayvil 2y ago
        Yeah monotropic. That's what I'm talking about.