3 ms·

Is it though? I kind of do believe in a deterministic universe, but I thought quantum physics disagree with that.

by lukan 2y ago

thrance 2y ago
Quantum phenomenons appear non-deterministic, but there is no definitive proof that they are not. But I think this is irrelevant to the question of free will: having quantum states randomly collapse insinde my brain would have nothing to do with freedom.
- lupire 2y ago
  It depends on what the RNG is.
  - Filligree 2y ago
    That's just moving the problem around. Say the RNG is controlled by a soul of some kind; next up, how does the soul work? It's either random or an algorithm, and either way we're right back where we started.
    - kaibee 2y ago
      That's fine, as long as its complex enough to keep us busy and nurse the ego :)
  - Evidlo 2y ago
    If the universe uses Dual_EC_DRBG then the NSA can read your mind.
setopt 2y ago
> I kind of do believe in a deterministic universe, but I thought quantum physics disagree with that. Not necessarily. Most people learn the "Copenhagen interpretation" in intro quantum mechanics. The quantum wave function then evolves deterministically (Schrodinger equation), but collapses probabilistically (on observation). In that sense, the world is fundamentally random – although I personally wouldn't describe a robot driven by a real RNG as having "free will", even though it is indeed non-deterministic. However, there is a major caveat here: This is just one interpretation of quantum mechanics, and there are fully deterministic alternatives. For instance, in "non-local hidden variable" and "superdeterministic" interpretations, the wave function collapse is believed to be a deterministic process. In the "many worlds" interpretation, the wave function doesn't collapse at all (it only entangles), and you're left with only the deterministic Schrodinger equation. It has also been shown that quantum-like behavior can arise in deterministic systems, see e.g. the "bouncing droplet" experiments on YouTube if you're interested (which is a beautiful macroscopic analogue to the "pilot wave" interpretation, which is a viable "non-local hidden variable" theory). The reason it's commonly stated that quantum mechanics requires non-determinism is that (i) the philosophically most appealing "local hidden variable" theory has been falsified, (ii) the Copenhagen interpretation is easy to teach, and (iii) for practical calculations it actually doesn't matter. (Source: I work in quantum mechanics.)

Is it though? I kind of do believe in a deterministic universe, but I thought quantum physics disagree with that.

by lukan 2y ago

Is it though? I kind of do believe in a deterministic universe, but I thought quantum physics disagree with that.

Quantum phenomenons appear non-deterministic, but there is no definitive proof that they are not. But I think this is irrelevant to the question of free will: having quantum states randomly collapse insinde my brain would have nothing to do with freedom.

lupire 2y ago
It depends on what the RNG is.
- Filligree 2y ago
  That's just moving the problem around. Say the RNG is controlled by a soul of some kind; next up, how does the soul work? It's either random or an algorithm, and either way we're right back where we started.
  - kaibee 2y ago
    That's fine, as long as its complex enough to keep us busy and nurse the ego :)
- Evidlo 2y ago
  If the universe uses Dual_EC_DRBG then the NSA can read your mind.

setopt 2y ago

> I kind of do believe in a deterministic universe, but I thought quantum physics disagree with that. Not necessarily. Most people learn the "Copenhagen interpretation" in intro quantum mechanics. The quantum wave function then evolves deterministically (Schrodinger equation), but collapses probabilistically (on observation). In that sense, the world is fundamentally random – although I personally wouldn't describe a robot driven by a real RNG as having "free will", even though it is indeed non-deterministic. However, there is a major caveat here: This is just one interpretation of quantum mechanics, and there are fully deterministic alternatives. For instance, in "non-local hidden variable" and "superdeterministic" interpretations, the wave function collapse is believed to be a deterministic process. In the "many worlds" interpretation, the wave function doesn't collapse at all (it only entangles), and you're left with only the deterministic Schrodinger equation. It has also been shown that quantum-like behavior can arise in deterministic systems, see e.g. the "bouncing droplet" experiments on YouTube if you're interested (which is a beautiful macroscopic analogue to the "pilot wave" interpretation, which is a viable "non-local hidden variable" theory). The reason it's commonly stated that quantum mechanics requires non-determinism is that (i) the philosophically most appealing "local hidden variable" theory has been falsified, (ii) the Copenhagen interpretation is easy to teach, and (iii) for practical calculations it actually doesn't matter. (Source: I work in quantum mechanics.)