4 ms·

It's an analogy, not a model. It's useless for making predictions or testing hypotheses. Even pretty useless for conveying understanding.

Teever 2y ago
An analogy is a way of expressing a model in a highly compressed verbal state.
mathgeek 2y ago
The term we're looking for is likely "analogical model" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogical_models https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogical_models
- poochkoishi728 2y ago
  [flagged]
FrustratedMonky 2y ago
Tomato/Potato. One mans analogy is another mans model. Do you have some solution to this age old conundrum? How are we to use language to describe new things without using any existing words? Of course, just make up new words is one solution. But for a lot of things, that gets to also be confusing, and not help communicate an idea.
- mannykannot 2y ago
  > Do you have some solution to this age old conundrum? Well, as it happens, the person you are replying to did have at least an outline of a solution in this case, which could be stated thus: analogies may be regarded as models to the extent that they are useful for making predictions or testing hypotheses. it probably needs some refinement (for example, analogies carefully-crafted to "predict" the outcome in very narrow cases, but which diverge significantly with modest changes, probably don't count), but it is about as good as you can get in pinning down the semantics of ordinary language. For example, a hydraulic analogy to electric circuits may be useful in simple cases, but once reactive elements are introduced, it is probably time to abandon it. Similarly, the 'bowling-ball on a mattress' analogy for general relativity cannot even predict the precession of Mercury, while some hydraulic and acoustic models have, apparently, been useful for better understanding black holes (even though they also spawned ridiculous headlines like "Scientists Close in on Creating Black Hole in Lab."[1]) In the case of TFA, I personally feel that the analogy being pushed is at best useless and probably misleading for any purpose. [1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-close-in-on-creating-black-hole-in-lab/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-close-...
  - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
    A thoughtful and reasonable response. Especially like bringing up the hydraulic example. I was reacting to a common trope on HN to react harshly to any type of metaphor about the brain. When, where is the outrage when describing 'voltage' as a type of 'water pressure in a hose'. As you say, it is only accurate to a degree. Like giving a presentation on 'cloud' computing, and the power point has clouds, and some cohort of IT people are seething in the back of the room, "those aren't really clouds, they are servers". Guess that is the problem, all analogies are only accurate to some degree, or else they would be the original. Nothing can be fully explained by something else, without both models being the same. So at some point, analogies are just helpful to communicate some concepts, but are not complete. Yet, having something 'similar' can help get over some hump in understanding the 'new thing'. That link is pay walled, do you have another copy?
    - mannykannot 2y ago
      Aside from the absurd title SciAm republished it under, the article originally appeared here: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2014.16131 https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2014.16131 Whether it is actually much use in understanding black holes is a matter of opinion.
      - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
        Got it. Nice. So you are talking about taking this concept of 'analogies' to the extreme of an actual physical 'analogy' that can be studied. Here acoustics, to mimic the event horizon (i'm simplifying). This is pretty extreme case. I was just saying generally, that metaphors and analogies can help explain concepts. This is finding actual real correspondence between different 'model's. Were you saying earlier that there was a way to model this correspondence between models generally, for other cases? Maybe there is a category theory or something, to relate different models, so they can be analogies of each other, but both real so can have experiments?
        mannykannot 2y ago

Teever 2y ago

An analogy is a way of expressing a model in a highly compressed verbal state.

mathgeek 2y ago

The term we're looking for is likely "analogical model" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogical_models https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogical_models

poochkoishi728 2y ago
[flagged]

FrustratedMonky 2y ago

Tomato/Potato. One mans analogy is another mans model. Do you have some solution to this age old conundrum? How are we to use language to describe new things without using any existing words? Of course, just make up new words is one solution. But for a lot of things, that gets to also be confusing, and not help communicate an idea.

mannykannot 2y ago
> Do you have some solution to this age old conundrum? Well, as it happens, the person you are replying to did have at least an outline of a solution in this case, which could be stated thus: analogies may be regarded as models to the extent that they are useful for making predictions or testing hypotheses. it probably needs some refinement (for example, analogies carefully-crafted to "predict" the outcome in very narrow cases, but which diverge significantly with modest changes, probably don't count), but it is about as good as you can get in pinning down the semantics of ordinary language. For example, a hydraulic analogy to electric circuits may be useful in simple cases, but once reactive elements are introduced, it is probably time to abandon it. Similarly, the 'bowling-ball on a mattress' analogy for general relativity cannot even predict the precession of Mercury, while some hydraulic and acoustic models have, apparently, been useful for better understanding black holes (even though they also spawned ridiculous headlines like "Scientists Close in on Creating Black Hole in Lab."[1]) In the case of TFA, I personally feel that the analogy being pushed is at best useless and probably misleading for any purpose. [1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-close-in-on-creating-black-hole-in-lab/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-close-...
- FrustratedMonky 2y ago
  A thoughtful and reasonable response. Especially like bringing up the hydraulic example. I was reacting to a common trope on HN to react harshly to any type of metaphor about the brain. When, where is the outrage when describing 'voltage' as a type of 'water pressure in a hose'. As you say, it is only accurate to a degree. Like giving a presentation on 'cloud' computing, and the power point has clouds, and some cohort of IT people are seething in the back of the room, "those aren't really clouds, they are servers". Guess that is the problem, all analogies are only accurate to some degree, or else they would be the original. Nothing can be fully explained by something else, without both models being the same. So at some point, analogies are just helpful to communicate some concepts, but are not complete. Yet, having something 'similar' can help get over some hump in understanding the 'new thing'. That link is pay walled, do you have another copy?
  - mannykannot 2y ago
    Aside from the absurd title SciAm republished it under, the article originally appeared here: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2014.16131 https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2014.16131 Whether it is actually much use in understanding black holes is a matter of opinion.
    - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
      Got it. Nice. So you are talking about taking this concept of 'analogies' to the extreme of an actual physical 'analogy' that can be studied. Here acoustics, to mimic the event horizon (i'm simplifying). This is pretty extreme case. I was just saying generally, that metaphors and analogies can help explain concepts. This is finding actual real correspondence between different 'model's. Were you saying earlier that there was a way to model this correspondence between models generally, for other cases? Maybe there is a category theory or something, to relate different models, so they can be analogies of each other, but both real so can have experiments?
      - mannykannot 2y ago