5 ms·

I don't like the e-waste aspect either, but realistically, the chip is so minuscule that the amount of waste is trivial compared to almost anything else you mig

by kens 2y ago

I don't like the e-waste aspect either, but realistically, the chip is so minuscule that the amount of waste is trivial compared to almost anything else you might discard. The chip is literally the size of a grain of salt. The other factor is that people who use tickets regularly would use the rechargeable plastic cards, rather than the disposable tickets, so the amount of waste is reduced.

bboygravity 2y ago
The chip is the size of a grain of salt, but there's a relatively huge antenna inside made of conducting material (metal?) and glue and all that.
- gruez 2y ago
  all of that is probably negligible compared to how much disposable foil is used for cooking or packaging.
  - lxgr 2y ago
    On one hand it is probably small in comparison, but on the other hand, it seems much more feasible to reuse transit ticket ICs than e.g. food packaging. Many transit agencies do explicitly incentivize reuse, e.g. by offering cheaper fares using a reloadable contactless card and often charging a deposit for that card. Even then, many of these systems have been struggling due to the IC shortage, given the low margins these single-use tickets have to operate on. In some Asian countries, including Japan and Malaysia, it was tricky to get a new transit card for several months or even years, even though there is a deposit charge.
    - idunnoman1222 2y ago
      just let people use their phones to open the gate
  - ximus 2y ago
    I don't know about justifying or rationalising waste by pointing to a greater source of waste.
  - bboygravity 2y ago
    The question is whether it's negligible compared to good old fashioned paper tickets.
wkat4242 2y ago
Yeah but also the antenna and I wonder how many chemicals are used in the lithography process.
Reason077 2y ago
> ”the chip is so minuscule that the amount of waste is trivial” It does add significant costs to the transport system. Single-use NFC cards must cost at least a few cents to produce and dispense, which adds up when you’re talking about hundreds of thousands or millions of rides every day. Even reusable NFC cards are costly in terms of providing all the infrastructure to support them: software, servers, enough top-up machines in stations to handle peak demand, commissions to retailers selling the cards, extra staff to deal with customer support, delays and congestion caused by top-up/ticketing queues, etc. That’s one reason London’s TfL has been pushing everyone to just use their bank-issued contactless credit/debit cards (or NFC-enabled phones) for years now. It’s also more convenient, of course, to never have to worry about your balance or recharging the card.
- n_plus_1_acc 2y ago
  Do they still issue single use tickets for transfers between the Heathrow Terminals?
  - Reason077 2y ago
    Last time I checked, yes. There’s a machine where you press a button for a free ticket that works the ticket gates. Unfortunately the days where you could ride the buses for free around the whole Heathrow area are gone, however.
ComputerGuru 2y ago
You are discarding both the chip and every consumable that went into making that chip, though.
bobthepanda 2y ago
I don’t really see why a chip is needed at all for single use tickets. Those have existed forever and there are a plethora of non-chip options ranging from the simple holepunch to the optical printed barcode or QR code.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- ianburrell 2y ago
  Because that would require a completely different way to read tickets than are used for stored value cards. Every ticket machine needs way to print which is less reliable than writing NFC chip. It is likely that printing a ticket costs more than NFC. Every fare reader needs two sensors, one NFC and one optical. The optical ones are going to be slower. People are going to get confused about which reader to use.
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    If people can manage the existence of both an optical scanner and contactless at the self checkout grocery store, this is way overblown. A ticket needs to be printed anyways, the single use ticket with chip does not come from thin air.
    - ianburrell 2y ago
      But why are you making it worse and more complicated? Disposable NFC card is better, cheaper, and easier to use. The NFC doesn't need to be printed. It just needs to be dispensed. My city went from printed paper tickets, that didn't even need to be scanned, to contactless fare system with paper NFC tickets. It saves money having simpler and less used ticket machines. It helps that most people use contactless credit card or fare card. They really should have more signs that can tap phone or credit card cause I suspect tourists think they need to buy ticket.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]

by kens 2y ago

bboygravity 2y ago

The chip is the size of a grain of salt, but there's a relatively huge antenna inside made of conducting material (metal?) and glue and all that.

gruez 2y ago
all of that is probably negligible compared to how much disposable foil is used for cooking or packaging.
- lxgr 2y ago
  On one hand it is probably small in comparison, but on the other hand, it seems much more feasible to reuse transit ticket ICs than e.g. food packaging. Many transit agencies do explicitly incentivize reuse, e.g. by offering cheaper fares using a reloadable contactless card and often charging a deposit for that card. Even then, many of these systems have been struggling due to the IC shortage, given the low margins these single-use tickets have to operate on. In some Asian countries, including Japan and Malaysia, it was tricky to get a new transit card for several months or even years, even though there is a deposit charge.
  - idunnoman1222 2y ago
    just let people use their phones to open the gate
- ximus 2y ago
  I don't know about justifying or rationalising waste by pointing to a greater source of waste.
- bboygravity 2y ago
  The question is whether it's negligible compared to good old fashioned paper tickets.

wkat4242 2y ago

Yeah but also the antenna and I wonder how many chemicals are used in the lithography process.

Reason077 2y ago

> ”the chip is so minuscule that the amount of waste is trivial” It does add significant costs to the transport system. Single-use NFC cards must cost at least a few cents to produce and dispense, which adds up when you’re talking about hundreds of thousands or millions of rides every day. Even reusable NFC cards are costly in terms of providing all the infrastructure to support them: software, servers, enough top-up machines in stations to handle peak demand, commissions to retailers selling the cards, extra staff to deal with customer support, delays and congestion caused by top-up/ticketing queues, etc. That’s one reason London’s TfL has been pushing everyone to just use their bank-issued contactless credit/debit cards (or NFC-enabled phones) for years now. It’s also more convenient, of course, to never have to worry about your balance or recharging the card.

n_plus_1_acc 2y ago
Do they still issue single use tickets for transfers between the Heathrow Terminals?
- Reason077 2y ago
  Last time I checked, yes. There’s a machine where you press a button for a free ticket that works the ticket gates. Unfortunately the days where you could ride the buses for free around the whole Heathrow area are gone, however.

ComputerGuru 2y ago

You are discarding both the chip and every consumable that went into making that chip, though.

bobthepanda 2y ago

I don’t really see why a chip is needed at all for single use tickets. Those have existed forever and there are a plethora of non-chip options ranging from the simple holepunch to the optical printed barcode or QR code.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ianburrell 2y ago
Because that would require a completely different way to read tickets than are used for stored value cards. Every ticket machine needs way to print which is less reliable than writing NFC chip. It is likely that printing a ticket costs more than NFC. Every fare reader needs two sensors, one NFC and one optical. The optical ones are going to be slower. People are going to get confused about which reader to use.
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  If people can manage the existence of both an optical scanner and contactless at the self checkout grocery store, this is way overblown. A ticket needs to be printed anyways, the single use ticket with chip does not come from thin air.
  - ianburrell 2y ago
    But why are you making it worse and more complicated? Disposable NFC card is better, cheaper, and easier to use. The NFC doesn't need to be printed. It just needs to be dispensed. My city went from printed paper tickets, that didn't even need to be scanned, to contactless fare system with paper NFC tickets. It saves money having simpler and less used ticket machines. It helps that most people use contactless credit card or fare card. They really should have more signs that can tap phone or credit card cause I suspect tourists think they need to buy ticket.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]