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No way they would go for that. That limits the potential upside. Tips have unlimited earning potential. A salary, even if higher, is a fixed quantity. I'd be o

No way they would go for that. That limits the potential upside. Tips have unlimited earning potential. A salary, even if higher, is a fixed quantity. I'd be okay with eliminating tipping. Frankly, it would be way easier for me to take my margin if the price was baked into the menu! In a vacuum, it would be silly for me to do anything else. But you don't have a business without the staff. You are pretty much beholden to their whims. There is a restaurant on every street corner and they are all hiring. If you don't keep staff happy, they aren't sticking around.

eesmith 2y ago
I wasn't suggesting to eliminate tipping, I was suggesting to raise salary as an alternative to changing the tipping options. The unlimited earning potential would still be there.
- randomdata 2y ago
  Well, they didn't ask for a higher salary, they asked for higher tipping options. "That's not what I asked for" isn't exactly a great way to keep staff happy.
  - eesmith 2y ago
    Did they know that a higher salary was a possibility? Would you be able to give raises comparable in earnings to what they would make from higher "recommended" tips? As a reminder, the original article concerned people selling "coffee or a muffin", and not "table service at restaurants". Where do your employees fall on the spectrum?
    - randomdata 2y ago
      > Did they know that a higher salary was a possibility? I certainly can't read minds, but I find it hard to believe that someone – especially someone who realized they could ask for higher tip options – would not realize that they could also ask for a higher salary. You have to be pretty savvy to make it as a server. I would be surprised if any of them were that out to lunch, but I don't have concrete data to go on. I get higher salary requests too – and usually have to fulfill them, you don't have a business without staff – but that isn't the instance I was talking about. This doesn't really have any relevance to the topic at hand. After all, if you are the server, you're going to want the highest tips you can get even if you also have a higher salary. Why wouldn't you? Let's be real. They are not doing the job of a server just for fun, they are there to maximize profit. > Would you be able to give raises comparable in earnings to what they would make from higher "recommended" tips? I wouldn't have much choice if that is what they wanted. You don't have a business without staff. I guess what you are asking is if it would bankrupt me? Who knows? There are too many hidden variables to even start to guess. I mean, you have to be pretty savvy to make it as a server. We all understand that there is some tipping point where bankruptcy becomes inevitable, so servers wouldn't push for a million dollars a year or something. But assuming you mean within reason. > As a reminder, the original article concerned people selling "coffee or a muffin", and not "table service at restaurants". Where do your employees fall on the spectrum? A segment of the staff would fit into that end of the spectrum. Unfortunately, the awful state of software in the industry means that variable tipping options wasn't a technical choice (absent of running two entirely separate system). As such, they got pushed into the same rates the other restaurant staff whether they liked it or not. I didn't hear any complaints, though. If they start asking for lower tipping rates, I might have to find a workaround for the technical limitations. But so far it hasn't come up (and I will be completely shocked if it ever does).
      - eesmith 2y ago
        > but I find it hard to believe that someone ... You have to be pretty savvy to make it as a server. Are they savvy enough to figure out you wouldn't give them a large enough mass raise, but would raise the suggested tip levels and pass the issue on to the customers? Are they savvy enough to rig things to get a higher tip, even though the overall effect is worse for the restaurant? (Which I've read about in previous stories about tippping/no tippping. Like giving poor service to people they know won't tip well, or telling lies about the state of the restaurant to get a sympathy bonus.) Are they savvy enough to avoid getting a "worthless, over priced college degree", as richrichie suggests is the fundamental issue? Is this request for higher suggested tip rates because they "now are "highly educated" with expectations"? Because your description to me sounds like they are correctly using their market advantage, which doesn't require a college degree. That is, everything you say can be true, but not at all support richrichie's (deservedly, IMO) downvoted comment. Your response also sounds like I am correct, and it's not the people who are behind the counter serving muffins who are the main driver of the change in your restaurant's policies, bur rather they are the secondary beneficiaries of changes driven by your (traditionally tipped) wait staff.
        randomdata 2y ago
        > Are they savvy enough to figure out you wouldn't give them a large enough mass raise, but would raise the suggested tip levels and pass the issue on to the customers? They're likely savvy enough to know that if I can cashflow what would have been the tip, it works in my favour. There is good reason the workers (and, quite often, customers!) prefer to keep it a separate transaction. Sucks for me, but what can you do? You don't have a business without staff (and customers). They hold all the power. > Are they savvy enough to rig things to get a higher tip, even though the overall effect is worse for the restaurant? No doubt to the extent that it is to their favour. They most certainly aren't there for my benefit. > Are they savvy enough to avoid getting a "worthless, over priced college degree", as richrichie suggests is the fundamental issue? Perhaps, but pursuant of a degree is always done for the feel good emotions, not rational decision making. Not even the savviest person alive is able to keep all emotions at bay. Sometimes you just gotta spend money to get laid. > Is this request for higher suggested tip rates because they "now are "highly educated" with expectations"? Well, if we look to the historical record it does not appear that servers always had savvy, but that the rise of savvy people taking serving positions has raised the bar (although that could be the result of not having good data rather than some actual change). What we do know is that colleges flat out won't allow anyone without savvy into their halls, going to great lengths to banish anyone who might try, so as a result there is a strong correlation between having savvy and having college debt. Did savvy people start taking serving jobs because they had to in order to service the debt? It is quite possible. > That is, everything you say can be true, but not at all support richrichie's (deservedly, IMO) downvoted comment. Okay....? That's fine. I couldn't care less about what richrichie had to say, and I care even less about someone pressing an arbitrary button that does nothing. > Your response also sounds like I am correct Let's hope. As long as it isn't me that's correct. I can think of nothing more defeating than spending all that time writing comments, and then not being able to learn anything from it because I was already correct.

eesmith 2y ago

I wasn't suggesting to eliminate tipping, I was suggesting to raise salary as an alternative to changing the tipping options. The unlimited earning potential would still be there.

randomdata 2y ago
Well, they didn't ask for a higher salary, they asked for higher tipping options. "That's not what I asked for" isn't exactly a great way to keep staff happy.
- eesmith 2y ago
  Did they know that a higher salary was a possibility? Would you be able to give raises comparable in earnings to what they would make from higher "recommended" tips? As a reminder, the original article concerned people selling "coffee or a muffin", and not "table service at restaurants". Where do your employees fall on the spectrum?
  - randomdata 2y ago
    > Did they know that a higher salary was a possibility? I certainly can't read minds, but I find it hard to believe that someone – especially someone who realized they could ask for higher tip options – would not realize that they could also ask for a higher salary. You have to be pretty savvy to make it as a server. I would be surprised if any of them were that out to lunch, but I don't have concrete data to go on. I get higher salary requests too – and usually have to fulfill them, you don't have a business without staff – but that isn't the instance I was talking about. This doesn't really have any relevance to the topic at hand. After all, if you are the server, you're going to want the highest tips you can get even if you also have a higher salary. Why wouldn't you? Let's be real. They are not doing the job of a server just for fun, they are there to maximize profit. > Would you be able to give raises comparable in earnings to what they would make from higher "recommended" tips? I wouldn't have much choice if that is what they wanted. You don't have a business without staff. I guess what you are asking is if it would bankrupt me? Who knows? There are too many hidden variables to even start to guess. I mean, you have to be pretty savvy to make it as a server. We all understand that there is some tipping point where bankruptcy becomes inevitable, so servers wouldn't push for a million dollars a year or something. But assuming you mean within reason. > As a reminder, the original article concerned people selling "coffee or a muffin", and not "table service at restaurants". Where do your employees fall on the spectrum? A segment of the staff would fit into that end of the spectrum. Unfortunately, the awful state of software in the industry means that variable tipping options wasn't a technical choice (absent of running two entirely separate system). As such, they got pushed into the same rates the other restaurant staff whether they liked it or not. I didn't hear any complaints, though. If they start asking for lower tipping rates, I might have to find a workaround for the technical limitations. But so far it hasn't come up (and I will be completely shocked if it ever does).
    - eesmith 2y ago
      > but I find it hard to believe that someone ... You have to be pretty savvy to make it as a server. Are they savvy enough to figure out you wouldn't give them a large enough mass raise, but would raise the suggested tip levels and pass the issue on to the customers? Are they savvy enough to rig things to get a higher tip, even though the overall effect is worse for the restaurant? (Which I've read about in previous stories about tippping/no tippping. Like giving poor service to people they know won't tip well, or telling lies about the state of the restaurant to get a sympathy bonus.) Are they savvy enough to avoid getting a "worthless, over priced college degree", as richrichie suggests is the fundamental issue? Is this request for higher suggested tip rates because they "now are "highly educated" with expectations"? Because your description to me sounds like they are correctly using their market advantage, which doesn't require a college degree. That is, everything you say can be true, but not at all support richrichie's (deservedly, IMO) downvoted comment. Your response also sounds like I am correct, and it's not the people who are behind the counter serving muffins who are the main driver of the change in your restaurant's policies, bur rather they are the secondary beneficiaries of changes driven by your (traditionally tipped) wait staff.
      - randomdata 2y ago
        > Are they savvy enough to figure out you wouldn't give them a large enough mass raise, but would raise the suggested tip levels and pass the issue on to the customers? They're likely savvy enough to know that if I can cashflow what would have been the tip, it works in my favour. There is good reason the workers (and, quite often, customers!) prefer to keep it a separate transaction. Sucks for me, but what can you do? You don't have a business without staff (and customers). They hold all the power. > Are they savvy enough to rig things to get a higher tip, even though the overall effect is worse for the restaurant? No doubt to the extent that it is to their favour. They most certainly aren't there for my benefit. > Are they savvy enough to avoid getting a "worthless, over priced college degree", as richrichie suggests is the fundamental issue? Perhaps, but pursuant of a degree is always done for the feel good emotions, not rational decision making. Not even the savviest person alive is able to keep all emotions at bay. Sometimes you just gotta spend money to get laid. > Is this request for higher suggested tip rates because they "now are "highly educated" with expectations"? Well, if we look to the historical record it does not appear that servers always had savvy, but that the rise of savvy people taking serving positions has raised the bar (although that could be the result of not having good data rather than some actual change). What we do know is that colleges flat out won't allow anyone without savvy into their halls, going to great lengths to banish anyone who might try, so as a result there is a strong correlation between having savvy and having college debt. Did savvy people start taking serving jobs because they had to in order to service the debt? It is quite possible. > That is, everything you say can be true, but not at all support richrichie's (deservedly, IMO) downvoted comment. Okay....? That's fine. I couldn't care less about what richrichie had to say, and I care even less about someone pressing an arbitrary button that does nothing. > Your response also sounds like I am correct Let's hope. As long as it isn't me that's correct. I can think of nothing more defeating than spending all that time writing comments, and then not being able to learn anything from it because I was already correct.