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I would love for my state to make all fees and tips included in the price like Europe. The price should be the price. Make asking for a tip illegal. Raise minim

I would love for my state to make all fees and tips included in the price like Europe. The price should be the price. Make asking for a tip illegal. Raise minimum wage for restaurant workers so they do not need the tip. Have a separate price for take away so that eating in includes a bit extra to cover the additional costs. But alas, I live in a red state so it is never going to happen.

randomdata 2y ago
> Raise minimum wage for restaurant workers so they do not need the tip. Servers at my mid-range restaurant bring in around $20 per hour in tips, on top of a base $16 minimum wage. So approximately $36 per hour is where you'd need it to land. Anything less and they ain't showing up. It is already hard enough to find anyone at that rate!
- aeadio 2y ago
  Let the industry self-regulate that. You stipulate a reasonable minimum wage, but like most other industries, mid-level and above restaurants need to pay a competitive wage, or talent goes elsewhere. If the going rate post-tip is about $36/hour, then the restaurants can target that as their post-tip benchmark wage. I can tell you as a different type of talent worker, nobody is trying to pay me minimum wage. Minimum wage is set to ensure there's a reasonable floor on downmarket offerings. When you're 18 and fresh out of school and you work at your local Cracker Barrel, minimum wage ensures you don't get exploited. It's not the benchmark for experienced workers who have picked up a valuable skillset. You have all these restaurant operators crying that getting rid of tippers puts them out of business, makes their business unviable. Well for one, that's nobody else's problem -- there's no contract, no constitutional guarantee that you're allowed to be in business. Making something economically viable is the whole game. But it seems like everyone just flunked grade school arithmetic. The cost is a wash at the end. At mid-range restaurants and above, practically everyone tips the same 18-20% on top of the base cost of the meal. If tipping is made illegal, you can expect meal cost across the board to rise by about this much to make up the difference. It's the exact same cashflow. You can pay a living wage on what you're already charging customers on the final card settlement. They all seem to be imagining this nightmare scenario where they're forced to raise their menu prices, and that prices them out of the business versus their competitors who, somehow, don't need to do the same. The law shouldn't cater to business operators with no business sense.
  - randomdata 2y ago
    > You have all these restaurant operators crying that getting rid of tippers puts them out of business They're not exactly wrong, I suppose. A restaurant isn't in the business of food, they are in the business of letting the patrons feel like they are kings for a moment of their life. Being able to throw some shilling at "the help" is part of the experience. I've experimented with not offering tipping as an option when I have worked on the floor and customers become quite irate about it. I was actually a little taken back at first, but it makes sense when you stop and think about why the business model exists. That's not say restaurants couldn't pivot into a new business model, but outlawing the old model would absolutely see that business go under. Anything else would be in violation of the law. > there's no contract, no constitutional guarantee that you're allowed to be in business. Fair enough. But by the same token, it is curious that there are calls to end the experience customers crave and one that provides a pretty good living for those doing the work. All parties are making the transactions voluntarily. > If tipping is made illegal, you can expect meal cost across the board to rise by about this much to make up the difference. Indeed. Which is way better for me as it is easier for me to skim my margins off the top. Humans aren't perfect calculators. They wouldn't notice a few cents here and a few cents there in my favour. The law prevents me from taking a margin from tips, though, so there is much greater accounting visible to the worker there. I suspect the "tipping should be illegal" idea stems from restauranteurs themselves. I am certainly a proponent! Bring on making tipping illegal. Who doesn't want the cashflow through their own books? But until then, I am beholden to my customers and staff. Without them, I truly don't have a business.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      I just wanted to say that your post challenged (and will likely change) an assumption I've always had about restaurant owners and tipping culture. I've always just assumed, without ever having been restaurateur, that both servers and owners loved/supported the tipping status quo. Of course servers love it. But why restaurant owners? "It lets those greedy restaurant owners pay their staff less!" as the trope goes. It never really occurred to me that it's kind of a pain for you, too, and that you'd also rather just ditch it. The thing I don't understand though is: How is tipping sneaking in to other non-restaurant businesses, if it's not really supported by the business owners? After all, they're the ones deciding to offer the option to tip.
- 5555624 2y ago
  > on top of a base $16 minimum wage That depends on what state you're in. The Federal minimum tipped wage is $2.13 per hour and has not increased in years. (If wages and tips, combined, don't equal the minimum wage of $7.25 per hour, teh employer is supposed to make up teh differences.) A number of states have set a different minimum tipped wage, just as they have set a different minimum wage. Seven states have the same minimum tipped and non-tipped wage. (California is $16 for both tipped and non-tipped employees.)
  - randomdata 2y ago
    > That depends on what state you're in. Are you under the impression that this is some kind of unobserved Schrodinger's Cat restaurant? There is no depends. That's what it is. It has already been observed. The state within the box is known.
Crosseye_Jack 2y ago
Tipping isn’t illegal in Europe, and as someone who has worked in the service industry I don’t really like the idea of making it illegal either (Even if its just making asking for one illegal). But IMO it should be a measure of the service provided not an expectation pushed on the customer. A nice gesture given by the customer. I remember a visit to the States where I stayed with friends, so got to see “Real America”, not just tourist traps. On my visit when we were just chilling out I remember my friend’s parents ran a Limo service and the discussion they had because one rider hadn’t tipped the driver, and who they were going to call them up and demand a tip. I can remember thinking that shit just wouldn’t fly back home and if I got a call demanding a tip after the fact I would just laugh my head off and put the phone down. But it’s a different culture I suppose, one I still can’t get my head around. EDIT: I see how it would be hard to change right now, IMO it would have to be gradual. Servers can easily make more than their wage just in tips, removing tips and paying the staff the same "wage" as if they got tips would have to put that increase of costs on to the products, which the avg customer will baulk at even if they are paying the same overall.
- holowoodman 2y ago
  Excessively requiring tipping is a form of tax-dodging. Tips are untaxed and exempt from social security fees.
  - tpmoney 2y ago
    Tips are absolutely taxable income and are required to be reported: https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/tip-income-is-taxable-and-must-be-reported https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/tip-income-is-taxable-and-must-... Which is why your server wants you to tip in cash, because then there's no official record of the tip. P.S. to tipped employees, paying taxes sucks, but cheating yourself out of SS credits by not paying your taxes sucks more in the long term. Especially if you wind up with some disability in early adulthood that limits your work capabilities. You want your pay history with the social security administration to be as long and as high as it can be, so bite the bullet and pay your taxes on your tips too.
    - 2y ago
fallingknife 2y ago
Why throw in the red state line? No states do that.
- anthony100 2y ago
  Agreed. I live in a blue state where the minimum wage for fast food workers is $20 and they still expect tips on top of that.
freitzkriesler2 2y ago
What are you talking about? You can still tip in Europe. In fact, if you tip at bars enough at the rate of 1-3 EURs per drink , you'll end up getting free drinks and significantly better service. That was the best part about being in Europe. Tips were appreciated whereas in america, wait staff expect them and feel entitled to absorb 25% tips.
ryandrake 2y ago
I just bought movie tickets with a $1.89 "fee" tacked on to the price. They didn't even say what the fee was for. Just "$11.75 + $1.89 Fee". There was zero findable information about what the fee was for and why it was that amount. They didn't even list a vague purpose like "Service Fee." It was just a fee. Why do this? Just say "$13.64" like a normal human being.
- sammyo 2y ago
  A big percentage of ticket price goes directly to the studio/distributor, perhaps the entire fee stays with the theater.

randomdata 2y ago

> Raise minimum wage for restaurant workers so they do not need the tip. Servers at my mid-range restaurant bring in around $20 per hour in tips, on top of a base $16 minimum wage. So approximately $36 per hour is where you'd need it to land. Anything less and they ain't showing up. It is already hard enough to find anyone at that rate!

aeadio 2y ago
Let the industry self-regulate that. You stipulate a reasonable minimum wage, but like most other industries, mid-level and above restaurants need to pay a competitive wage, or talent goes elsewhere. If the going rate post-tip is about $36/hour, then the restaurants can target that as their post-tip benchmark wage. I can tell you as a different type of talent worker, nobody is trying to pay me minimum wage. Minimum wage is set to ensure there's a reasonable floor on downmarket offerings. When you're 18 and fresh out of school and you work at your local Cracker Barrel, minimum wage ensures you don't get exploited. It's not the benchmark for experienced workers who have picked up a valuable skillset. You have all these restaurant operators crying that getting rid of tippers puts them out of business, makes their business unviable. Well for one, that's nobody else's problem -- there's no contract, no constitutional guarantee that you're allowed to be in business. Making something economically viable is the whole game. But it seems like everyone just flunked grade school arithmetic. The cost is a wash at the end. At mid-range restaurants and above, practically everyone tips the same 18-20% on top of the base cost of the meal. If tipping is made illegal, you can expect meal cost across the board to rise by about this much to make up the difference. It's the exact same cashflow. You can pay a living wage on what you're already charging customers on the final card settlement. They all seem to be imagining this nightmare scenario where they're forced to raise their menu prices, and that prices them out of the business versus their competitors who, somehow, don't need to do the same. The law shouldn't cater to business operators with no business sense.
- randomdata 2y ago
  > You have all these restaurant operators crying that getting rid of tippers puts them out of business They're not exactly wrong, I suppose. A restaurant isn't in the business of food, they are in the business of letting the patrons feel like they are kings for a moment of their life. Being able to throw some shilling at "the help" is part of the experience. I've experimented with not offering tipping as an option when I have worked on the floor and customers become quite irate about it. I was actually a little taken back at first, but it makes sense when you stop and think about why the business model exists. That's not say restaurants couldn't pivot into a new business model, but outlawing the old model would absolutely see that business go under. Anything else would be in violation of the law. > there's no contract, no constitutional guarantee that you're allowed to be in business. Fair enough. But by the same token, it is curious that there are calls to end the experience customers crave and one that provides a pretty good living for those doing the work. All parties are making the transactions voluntarily. > If tipping is made illegal, you can expect meal cost across the board to rise by about this much to make up the difference. Indeed. Which is way better for me as it is easier for me to skim my margins off the top. Humans aren't perfect calculators. They wouldn't notice a few cents here and a few cents there in my favour. The law prevents me from taking a margin from tips, though, so there is much greater accounting visible to the worker there. I suspect the "tipping should be illegal" idea stems from restauranteurs themselves. I am certainly a proponent! Bring on making tipping illegal. Who doesn't want the cashflow through their own books? But until then, I am beholden to my customers and staff. Without them, I truly don't have a business.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    I just wanted to say that your post challenged (and will likely change) an assumption I've always had about restaurant owners and tipping culture. I've always just assumed, without ever having been restaurateur, that both servers and owners loved/supported the tipping status quo. Of course servers love it. But why restaurant owners? "It lets those greedy restaurant owners pay their staff less!" as the trope goes. It never really occurred to me that it's kind of a pain for you, too, and that you'd also rather just ditch it. The thing I don't understand though is: How is tipping sneaking in to other non-restaurant businesses, if it's not really supported by the business owners? After all, they're the ones deciding to offer the option to tip.
5555624 2y ago
> on top of a base $16 minimum wage That depends on what state you're in. The Federal minimum tipped wage is $2.13 per hour and has not increased in years. (If wages and tips, combined, don't equal the minimum wage of $7.25 per hour, teh employer is supposed to make up teh differences.) A number of states have set a different minimum tipped wage, just as they have set a different minimum wage. Seven states have the same minimum tipped and non-tipped wage. (California is $16 for both tipped and non-tipped employees.)
- randomdata 2y ago
  > That depends on what state you're in. Are you under the impression that this is some kind of unobserved Schrodinger's Cat restaurant? There is no depends. That's what it is. It has already been observed. The state within the box is known.

Crosseye_Jack 2y ago

Tipping isn’t illegal in Europe, and as someone who has worked in the service industry I don’t really like the idea of making it illegal either (Even if its just making asking for one illegal). But IMO it should be a measure of the service provided not an expectation pushed on the customer. A nice gesture given by the customer. I remember a visit to the States where I stayed with friends, so got to see “Real America”, not just tourist traps. On my visit when we were just chilling out I remember my friend’s parents ran a Limo service and the discussion they had because one rider hadn’t tipped the driver, and who they were going to call them up and demand a tip. I can remember thinking that shit just wouldn’t fly back home and if I got a call demanding a tip after the fact I would just laugh my head off and put the phone down. But it’s a different culture I suppose, one I still can’t get my head around. EDIT: I see how it would be hard to change right now, IMO it would have to be gradual. Servers can easily make more than their wage just in tips, removing tips and paying the staff the same "wage" as if they got tips would have to put that increase of costs on to the products, which the avg customer will baulk at even if they are paying the same overall.

holowoodman 2y ago
Excessively requiring tipping is a form of tax-dodging. Tips are untaxed and exempt from social security fees.
- tpmoney 2y ago
  Tips are absolutely taxable income and are required to be reported: https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/tip-income-is-taxable-and-must-be-reported https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/tip-income-is-taxable-and-must-... Which is why your server wants you to tip in cash, because then there's no official record of the tip. P.S. to tipped employees, paying taxes sucks, but cheating yourself out of SS credits by not paying your taxes sucks more in the long term. Especially if you wind up with some disability in early adulthood that limits your work capabilities. You want your pay history with the social security administration to be as long and as high as it can be, so bite the bullet and pay your taxes on your tips too.
  - 2y ago

fallingknife 2y ago

Why throw in the red state line? No states do that.

anthony100 2y ago
Agreed. I live in a blue state where the minimum wage for fast food workers is $20 and they still expect tips on top of that.

freitzkriesler2 2y ago

What are you talking about? You can still tip in Europe. In fact, if you tip at bars enough at the rate of 1-3 EURs per drink , you'll end up getting free drinks and significantly better service. That was the best part about being in Europe. Tips were appreciated whereas in america, wait staff expect them and feel entitled to absorb 25% tips.

ryandrake 2y ago

I just bought movie tickets with a $1.89 "fee" tacked on to the price. They didn't even say what the fee was for. Just "$11.75 + $1.89 Fee". There was zero findable information about what the fee was for and why it was that amount. They didn't even list a vague purpose like "Service Fee." It was just a fee. Why do this? Just say "$13.64" like a normal human being.

sammyo 2y ago
A big percentage of ticket price goes directly to the studio/distributor, perhaps the entire fee stays with the theater.