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I think people underestimate how long ancient artifacts can survive. For instance searching for pot shards and arrowheads from the local Pueblo people I was luc

I think people underestimate how long ancient artifacts can survive. For instance searching for pot shards and arrowheads from the local Pueblo people I was lucky enough to find an arrowhead in excellent shape still attached to a fragment of shaft. This find is evidence not only that such things can survive, but that Pueblo people had advanced technology in the fabrication of aluminum and fiberglass.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> find is evidence not only that such things can survive You’re citing artefacts on the order of centuries to millennia. This is off by many orders of magnitudes from the paper’s subject. Arrowheads would not be expected to survive millions of years, thousands of times longer than they have to date. (EDIT: Obviously wrong.)
- IsTom 2y ago
  We've got stone tools from 2-3 millions years ago. Arrowheads just weren't made back then, only much more primitive oldowan choppers and then acheulean handaxes.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > We've got stone tools from 2-3 millions years ago You’re right. 3.3mm [1]. Not evidence of “industrial civilisation,” though. And within the few million year guess the paper posited. Those tools would have to be lucky to survive 10mm years. (The Earth is tearing itself apart not far from the site [2].) Our factories and cars would need more than luck. [1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/oldest-known-stone-tools-unearthed-kenya-180955341/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/oldest-known-s... [2] https://www.sciencealert.com/there-s-mounting-evidence-the-continent-of-africa-is-splitting-in-two https://www.sciencealert.com/there-s-mounting-evidence-the-c...
    - IsTom 2y ago
      Sitting in dry sediments they'd keep being OK until geological processes catch up to them. They're literally rocks. If something does not degrade biologically/chemically and is shielded from the elements it's going to take a long time to make it unrecognizable. We find biological fossils all the time. And they're old.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        Sure. I’m struggling to think of a rock we produce that would evidence industrial processes. Put another way, if we found this rock in an old stratum, tens or hundreds of millions of years old, would it be proof someone with industry was there?
        gus_massa 2y ago
        Glasware last forever. I expect that a lot of bottoms of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soda_siphon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soda_siphon survive in landfills. Gold jewelry, but I'm not sure it can prove industrialization. The asphalt of the roads may dissapear, but the gravel mixed with it and under it will create a very strange pattern. Panama and Suez channels, unless they are very unluck and get destroyed. Kitchen granite top and tumbstones. Marble may disolve if there is and acid environment. Quarries and coal mines are huge.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > glassware last forever Million years [1]. (It devitrifies.) > asphalt of the roads may dissapear, but the gravel mixed with it and under it will create a very strange pattern Would this be recognisable at an industrial scale? > Panama and Suez channels Suez is right above the East African rift, so maybe 10 My. Panama no clue. > Quarries and coal mines are huge To where they could evidence industrial activity after millions of years? [1] https://education.seattlepi.com/long-glass-bottle-degrade-landfill-5235.html https://education.seattlepi.com/long-glass-bottle-degrade-la...
ComputerGuru 2y ago
I think you might not fully grasp what happens on the scale of millions or billions of years. The entire crust folds in over itself repeatedly and everything (probabilistically) ends up boiled down into magma deep within the earth as new crust emerges to take its place. Nothing static survives.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> find is evidence not only that such things can survive You’re citing artefacts on the order of centuries to millennia. This is off by many orders of magnitudes from the paper’s subject. Arrowheads would not be expected to survive millions of years, thousands of times longer than they have to date. (EDIT: Obviously wrong.)

IsTom 2y ago
We've got stone tools from 2-3 millions years ago. Arrowheads just weren't made back then, only much more primitive oldowan choppers and then acheulean handaxes.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > We've got stone tools from 2-3 millions years ago You’re right. 3.3mm [1]. Not evidence of “industrial civilisation,” though. And within the few million year guess the paper posited. Those tools would have to be lucky to survive 10mm years. (The Earth is tearing itself apart not far from the site [2].) Our factories and cars would need more than luck. [1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/oldest-known-stone-tools-unearthed-kenya-180955341/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/oldest-known-s... [2] https://www.sciencealert.com/there-s-mounting-evidence-the-continent-of-africa-is-splitting-in-two https://www.sciencealert.com/there-s-mounting-evidence-the-c...
  - IsTom 2y ago
    Sitting in dry sediments they'd keep being OK until geological processes catch up to them. They're literally rocks. If something does not degrade biologically/chemically and is shielded from the elements it's going to take a long time to make it unrecognizable. We find biological fossils all the time. And they're old.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      Sure. I’m struggling to think of a rock we produce that would evidence industrial processes. Put another way, if we found this rock in an old stratum, tens or hundreds of millions of years old, would it be proof someone with industry was there?
      - gus_massa 2y ago
        Glasware last forever. I expect that a lot of bottoms of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soda_siphon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soda_siphon survive in landfills. Gold jewelry, but I'm not sure it can prove industrialization. The asphalt of the roads may dissapear, but the gravel mixed with it and under it will create a very strange pattern. Panama and Suez channels, unless they are very unluck and get destroyed. Kitchen granite top and tumbstones. Marble may disolve if there is and acid environment. Quarries and coal mines are huge.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > glassware last forever Million years [1]. (It devitrifies.) > asphalt of the roads may dissapear, but the gravel mixed with it and under it will create a very strange pattern Would this be recognisable at an industrial scale? > Panama and Suez channels Suez is right above the East African rift, so maybe 10 My. Panama no clue. > Quarries and coal mines are huge To where they could evidence industrial activity after millions of years? [1] https://education.seattlepi.com/long-glass-bottle-degrade-landfill-5235.html https://education.seattlepi.com/long-glass-bottle-degrade-la...

ComputerGuru 2y ago

I think you might not fully grasp what happens on the scale of millions or billions of years. The entire crust folds in over itself repeatedly and everything (probabilistically) ends up boiled down into magma deep within the earth as new crust emerges to take its place. Nothing static survives.