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I don't have access to the FT article, which looks to be a random opinion piece. But the Wikipedia article contradicts what you claim. > Before the 1940s, pizz

I don't have access to the FT article, which looks to be a random opinion piece. But the Wikipedia article contradicts what you claim. > Before the 1940s, pizza consumption was limited mostly to Italian Americans. Following World War II, veterans returning from the Italian Campaign, who were introduced to Italy's native cuisine, proved a ready market for pizza in particular How could veterans bring pizza back the US if somehow pizza was unknown in Italy? That's absurd. I really don't get why some Americans feel this need to claim that everything popular originates in the US.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> looks to be a random opinion piece It’s not, though it is a sceptical review of an Italian academic’s work. (How did you conclude it’s an opinion piece? It’s not even in the URL.) > Following World War II, veterans returning from the Italian Campaign, who were introduced to Italy's native cuisine, proved a ready market for pizza in particular I forgot the term, but it’s a food that’s cross influenced itself. Pizza obviously existed in America before WWII. We have documented evidence of American pizzerias, e.g. in New York back to 1905, opened by a Neapolitan [1]. Italian Americans in Italy, influenced by the American version, spurred pizza’s development and expansion across the peninsula. Those soldiers (and their comrades) returning to America influenced our version and in turn spurred its expansion across America. > don't get why some Americans feel this need to claim that everything popular originates in the US I said it’s a post-WWII invention and was strongly influenced by America. Not that it originated here. Pizza was born in Italy. What Italians call classic pizza today is a post-WWII invention, by Italians, in Italy, strongly influenced by the way it’s cooked in America. Chief among the changes was the temperature at which it is cooked. (Something they dialled up further than we did.) For whatever reason, pizza is a food that everyone makes up myths around. This is as true in New York or Chicago as in Italy. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York%E2%80%93style_pizza https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York%E2%80%93style_pizza
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  > I forgot the term, but it’s a food that’s cross influenced itself. The term is noted in the "history of pizza" wikipedia article you linked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_effect > I really don’t see how saying it’s a post-WWII invention and was strongly influenced by America means it originated here. > Pizza was born in Italy. What Italians call classic pizza today is a post-WWII invention, by Italians, in Italy, strongly influenced by the way it’s cooked in America. This doesn't really make sense; an object that a 19th-century Italian would have called a "pizza" would not be called a "pizza" by anyone today. The word existed, but the concept didn't. However, while a modern "classic Neapolitan pizza" is clearly not the same kind of thing as a 19th-century Neapolitan pizza, it just as clearly is the same thing as a 20th-century American pizza. Flatbreads eaten with other foods placed on top of them are a common thing, and wikipedia's "history of pizza" page makes sure to say that that's where the history of pizza begins, but that's not really a defensible idea either; there is no continuity between various parallel "bread, but with flavorful foods at the same time" meals from across the world and pizza. If Achaemenid soldiers baked flatbread with cheese on it, and then that practice died out, and over a thousand years later Italian peasants put vegetables on their flatbread... why would we say the extinct Persian food is an ancestor of the Italian one? If a bunch of American soldiers, raised to believe that pizza is an Italian food, visit Italy and learn that nobody there makes, eats, or sells pizza, what can we say about where pizza was born? The lesson there is that pizza is about as Italian as crab Rangoon is Burmese.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    Huh, some overcomplicated ones and then the “pizza effect.” > an object that a 19th-century Italian would have called a "pizza" would not be called a "pizza" by anyone today Eh, some of the 19th-century descriptions come close enough to be recognisable as a pizza variant. I’m not convinced a 19th century tomato pie wouldn’t be recognised as pizza today. > while a modern "classic Neapolitan pizza" is clearly not the same kind of thing as a 19th-century Neapolitan pizza, it just as clearly is the same thing as a 20th-century American pizza I haven’t seen a historical source (or combustion analysis) showing the high temperatures modern Neapolitan pizzas are cooked in occurring in the early 20th century here (nor 19th century there). That appears to be the Italians taking the New York gas-oven idea and cranking it to 11. (480°C to be exact.) > visit Italy and learn that nobody there makes, eats, or sells pizza, what can we say about where pizza was born? That many of them didn’t go the Napoli, also, we bombed a lot of things.
- g15jv2dp 2y ago
  > It’s not, though it is a sceptical review of an Italian academic’s work. (How did you conclude it’s an opinion piece? It’s not even in the URL.) The only thing I had access to, the title: "Everything I, an Italian, thought I knew about Italian food is wrong". That reeks of "opinion piece". > Pizza obviously existed in America before WWII. We have documented evidence of American pizzerias, e.g. in New York back to 1905, opened by a Neapolitan [1]. Italian Americans in Italy, influenced by the American version, spurred pizza’s development and expansion across the peninsula. Those soldiers (and their comrades) returning to America influenced our version and in turn spurred its expansion across America. The italicized part is not supported by the Wikipedia article, that I trust more than some review of a book I don't have and that you selectively quote. Without it your narrative breaks down.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > That reeks of "opinion piece” Sure. I’ll confirm that you’re wrong. > the Wikipedia article You only quoted Wikipedia saying “before the 1940s, pizza consumption was limited mostly to Italian Americans.” Where do you think Italian Americans live?
    - g15jv2dp 2y ago
      It's in the section about history pizza in the USA. It's saying that, in the USA, pizza consumption was limited mostly to Italian-Americans. Is that clearer? Come on... Read the whole paragraph, it explains that once American soldiers (presumably non-Italian-American) were exposed to Italian cuisine, they brought back appreciation for it back home, which led to the rise of pizza in the general American population.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > in the section about history pizza in the USA Also known as America! You asked “how could veterans bring pizza back the US [sic] if somehow pizza was unknown in Italy.” To prove that, you quoted a section that showed veterans did not “bring pizza back” to America, it was already here. (Nobody claimed pizza “was unknown in Italy” prior to WWII, so I’ll ignore that part.) WWII caused pizza to stop being seen as an immigrant food in America. It also caused the American pizza processes to intermix with those in Naples, both changing it into its modern form and helping it expand across the Italian peninsula. I’ll note that you’ve misquoted once source, Wikipedia, complained you couldn’t access a second, and provided zero of your own all while rejecting evidenced culinary history. Curious to be proven wrong with sources versus stubbornness.
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 2y ago
  I remember reading this anf it's reasonable. But it doesn't matter who invented it, Italy has mastered it. The quality is so much better and the price is low (due to the very low salaries in the country I presume). Hard to compete. Domino is still one of the worst pizzas I have ever tried in Canada.
- bonzini 2y ago
  The guy is known in Italy for being very clickbait-y. What he says is usually okay but a bit exaggerated, but in the case of pizza he is wrong. This is a discussion between him and another guy -> https://angeloforgione.com/2022/04/04/alberto-grandi-sulla-pizza-ho-detto-delle-sciocchezze/ https://angeloforgione.com/2022/04/04/alberto-grandi-sulla-p... Pizza became widespread in Italy after WW2 (thanks to emigration from Naples to the rest of Italy and tourism within Italy), and the global diffusion of pizza outside US and Italy definitely comes from the US rather than from Italy; but it got to America at the beginning of the 20th century almost a century after pizza restaurants were born in Naples.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > it got to America at the beginning of the 20th century almost a century after pizza restaurants were born in Naples Everything you’ve said is correct. The question is whether 19th-century Neapolitan pizza would be recognised, by Italians, as pizza today. The answer is a solid maybe. In Napoli, yes. Elsewhere, including in America, much less certainly. Note that I’m not suggesting people would think it’s not related to proper pizza. But if you told the average Roman or Venetian about New Jersey tomato pie [1], they’re likely to react as they would to Hawaiian pizza. Even though that product resembles pizza marinara quite closely. (Even when baked on a bubbling versus rising dough.) [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trenton_tomato_pie https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trenton_tomato_pie
    - bonzini 2y ago
      Seems pretty interesting and pizza-ish (unlike Chicago pizza which is only interesting). Yeah, I would call it focaccia al pomodoro perhaps. But if you consider that New York-style pizza is commonly sold by bakeries in Italy, and it's considered to be pizza (it's simply called "tall" pizza, and I think it's an independent reinvention but don't quote me on that), I think 19th century Neapolitan pizza would be okay in the rest of Italy as well. On the other hand, Hawaiian pizza is definitely pizza, the question is only whether the topping makes a good combination.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> looks to be a random opinion piece It’s not, though it is a sceptical review of an Italian academic’s work. (How did you conclude it’s an opinion piece? It’s not even in the URL.) > Following World War II, veterans returning from the Italian Campaign, who were introduced to Italy's native cuisine, proved a ready market for pizza in particular I forgot the term, but it’s a food that’s cross influenced itself. Pizza obviously existed in America before WWII. We have documented evidence of American pizzerias, e.g. in New York back to 1905, opened by a Neapolitan [1]. Italian Americans in Italy, influenced by the American version, spurred pizza’s development and expansion across the peninsula. Those soldiers (and their comrades) returning to America influenced our version and in turn spurred its expansion across America. > don't get why some Americans feel this need to claim that everything popular originates in the US I said it’s a post-WWII invention and was strongly influenced by America. Not that it originated here. Pizza was born in Italy. What Italians call classic pizza today is a post-WWII invention, by Italians, in Italy, strongly influenced by the way it’s cooked in America. Chief among the changes was the temperature at which it is cooked. (Something they dialled up further than we did.) For whatever reason, pizza is a food that everyone makes up myths around. This is as true in New York or Chicago as in Italy. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York%E2%80%93style_pizza https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York%E2%80%93style_pizza

thaumasiotes 2y ago
> I forgot the term, but it’s a food that’s cross influenced itself. The term is noted in the "history of pizza" wikipedia article you linked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_effect > I really don’t see how saying it’s a post-WWII invention and was strongly influenced by America means it originated here. > Pizza was born in Italy. What Italians call classic pizza today is a post-WWII invention, by Italians, in Italy, strongly influenced by the way it’s cooked in America. This doesn't really make sense; an object that a 19th-century Italian would have called a "pizza" would not be called a "pizza" by anyone today. The word existed, but the concept didn't. However, while a modern "classic Neapolitan pizza" is clearly not the same kind of thing as a 19th-century Neapolitan pizza, it just as clearly is the same thing as a 20th-century American pizza. Flatbreads eaten with other foods placed on top of them are a common thing, and wikipedia's "history of pizza" page makes sure to say that that's where the history of pizza begins, but that's not really a defensible idea either; there is no continuity between various parallel "bread, but with flavorful foods at the same time" meals from across the world and pizza. If Achaemenid soldiers baked flatbread with cheese on it, and then that practice died out, and over a thousand years later Italian peasants put vegetables on their flatbread... why would we say the extinct Persian food is an ancestor of the Italian one? If a bunch of American soldiers, raised to believe that pizza is an Italian food, visit Italy and learn that nobody there makes, eats, or sells pizza, what can we say about where pizza was born? The lesson there is that pizza is about as Italian as crab Rangoon is Burmese.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  Huh, some overcomplicated ones and then the “pizza effect.” > an object that a 19th-century Italian would have called a "pizza" would not be called a "pizza" by anyone today Eh, some of the 19th-century descriptions come close enough to be recognisable as a pizza variant. I’m not convinced a 19th century tomato pie wouldn’t be recognised as pizza today. > while a modern "classic Neapolitan pizza" is clearly not the same kind of thing as a 19th-century Neapolitan pizza, it just as clearly is the same thing as a 20th-century American pizza I haven’t seen a historical source (or combustion analysis) showing the high temperatures modern Neapolitan pizzas are cooked in occurring in the early 20th century here (nor 19th century there). That appears to be the Italians taking the New York gas-oven idea and cranking it to 11. (480°C to be exact.) > visit Italy and learn that nobody there makes, eats, or sells pizza, what can we say about where pizza was born? That many of them didn’t go the Napoli, also, we bombed a lot of things.
g15jv2dp 2y ago
> It’s not, though it is a sceptical review of an Italian academic’s work. (How did you conclude it’s an opinion piece? It’s not even in the URL.) The only thing I had access to, the title: "Everything I, an Italian, thought I knew about Italian food is wrong". That reeks of "opinion piece". > Pizza obviously existed in America before WWII. We have documented evidence of American pizzerias, e.g. in New York back to 1905, opened by a Neapolitan [1]. Italian Americans in Italy, influenced by the American version, spurred pizza’s development and expansion across the peninsula. Those soldiers (and their comrades) returning to America influenced our version and in turn spurred its expansion across America. The italicized part is not supported by the Wikipedia article, that I trust more than some review of a book I don't have and that you selectively quote. Without it your narrative breaks down.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > That reeks of "opinion piece” Sure. I’ll confirm that you’re wrong. > the Wikipedia article You only quoted Wikipedia saying “before the 1940s, pizza consumption was limited mostly to Italian Americans.” Where do you think Italian Americans live?
  - g15jv2dp 2y ago
    It's in the section about history pizza in the USA. It's saying that, in the USA, pizza consumption was limited mostly to Italian-Americans. Is that clearer? Come on... Read the whole paragraph, it explains that once American soldiers (presumably non-Italian-American) were exposed to Italian cuisine, they brought back appreciation for it back home, which led to the rise of pizza in the general American population.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > in the section about history pizza in the USA Also known as America! You asked “how could veterans bring pizza back the US [sic] if somehow pizza was unknown in Italy.” To prove that, you quoted a section that showed veterans did not “bring pizza back” to America, it was already here. (Nobody claimed pizza “was unknown in Italy” prior to WWII, so I’ll ignore that part.) WWII caused pizza to stop being seen as an immigrant food in America. It also caused the American pizza processes to intermix with those in Naples, both changing it into its modern form and helping it expand across the Italian peninsula. I’ll note that you’ve misquoted once source, Wikipedia, complained you couldn’t access a second, and provided zero of your own all while rejecting evidenced culinary history. Curious to be proven wrong with sources versus stubbornness.
Fire-Dragon-DoL 2y ago
I remember reading this anf it's reasonable. But it doesn't matter who invented it, Italy has mastered it. The quality is so much better and the price is low (due to the very low salaries in the country I presume). Hard to compete. Domino is still one of the worst pizzas I have ever tried in Canada.
bonzini 2y ago
The guy is known in Italy for being very clickbait-y. What he says is usually okay but a bit exaggerated, but in the case of pizza he is wrong. This is a discussion between him and another guy -> https://angeloforgione.com/2022/04/04/alberto-grandi-sulla-pizza-ho-detto-delle-sciocchezze/ https://angeloforgione.com/2022/04/04/alberto-grandi-sulla-p... Pizza became widespread in Italy after WW2 (thanks to emigration from Naples to the rest of Italy and tourism within Italy), and the global diffusion of pizza outside US and Italy definitely comes from the US rather than from Italy; but it got to America at the beginning of the 20th century almost a century after pizza restaurants were born in Naples.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > it got to America at the beginning of the 20th century almost a century after pizza restaurants were born in Naples Everything you’ve said is correct. The question is whether 19th-century Neapolitan pizza would be recognised, by Italians, as pizza today. The answer is a solid maybe. In Napoli, yes. Elsewhere, including in America, much less certainly. Note that I’m not suggesting people would think it’s not related to proper pizza. But if you told the average Roman or Venetian about New Jersey tomato pie [1], they’re likely to react as they would to Hawaiian pizza. Even though that product resembles pizza marinara quite closely. (Even when baked on a bubbling versus rising dough.) [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trenton_tomato_pie https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trenton_tomato_pie
  - bonzini 2y ago
    Seems pretty interesting and pizza-ish (unlike Chicago pizza which is only interesting). Yeah, I would call it focaccia al pomodoro perhaps. But if you consider that New York-style pizza is commonly sold by bakeries in Italy, and it's considered to be pizza (it's simply called "tall" pizza, and I think it's an independent reinvention but don't quote me on that), I think 19th century Neapolitan pizza would be okay in the rest of Italy as well. On the other hand, Hawaiian pizza is definitely pizza, the question is only whether the topping makes a good combination.