4 ms·

>“If it’s hot outside, we can raise the price of water and ice cream. If there's something that’s close to the expiration date, we can lower the price — that’s

by ohmyiv 2y ago

>“If it’s hot outside, we can raise the price of water and ice cream. If there's something that’s close to the expiration date, we can lower the price — that’s the good news,” Making price changes easier for workers is cool, but can we not have surge pricing for some things? This is getting ridiculous.

delichon 2y ago
I've spent a lot of time selling at flea markets. I try to get as much as the market will bear, moment to moment. I would probably ask more for an umbrella if it started to rain. Is that wrong?
- ohmyiv 2y ago
  I'd have to think about it more. However, my first thought (which is not always correct), if you know that it might rain, then raise the prices beforehand, not when it starts to rain. That just feels like an extra tax. A lot of stores increase their prices when they're expecting something like bad/good weather, events, etc., and it's fine for me. But when prices are increased momentarily due to a sudden need, that just feels bad for the customers. And it's not just me. A lot of people feel that way. That's why there's such a negative connotation to surge pricing. As a small scenario, if I came to your booth when it isn't raining and asked about umbrella prices and you quoted a price, would you respect that price if I came back later if it started raining? If yes, then great. If not, and you raise the price, do you think that I won't say negative things about your booth to others? You may gain a few dollars in the short term, but overall you may lose more than the few dollars you gained. And a reason I said I'd have to think about it: A solo person selling to a small flea market affects a lot less people than a major grocery chain. Like even if you did raise the price to me when it started raining, I wouldn't feel bad, knowing that you're just a small seller. When a large multi-billion dollar revenue chain does it, it feels bad, since they're just taking advantage and don't give a damn. Side note: I stopped using Uber during surge pricing due to the fact the driver doesn't actually get a good portion of it. If the driver got all or most of the extra pricing because they're the one's stuck in traffic, I probably wouldn't mind.
  - cortesoft 2y ago
    > But when prices are increased momentarily due to a sudden need, that just feels bad for the customers. If 100 people come into your store to buy the 50 umbrellas you carry, isn't it better for everyone to raise the prices? Some of those 100 might not REALLY need an umbrella, and are just buying it because they think they should (or to resell later!). If you raise the prices, you drive those buyers away and leave more product for the people who need it the most.
- y42 2y ago
  you can't compare this. Walmart is huge and probably has, in some areas, some kind of monopoly. If you sell your stuff on a flea market, I can deal with you to get a price that suits both of us. You have competition all around you, easy to reach, easy to compare. You are selling umbrellas, Walmart is selling water, one of if not the most basic food, for a maximum profit. The additional profit goes straight into your pocket. Same for Walmart, it's not like the employees somehow benefit from a price raise. Yes, the free market works like that: demand and offer control the price. But at some point this reaches the area of immorality.
- ryaneager 2y ago
  A single individual at a flea market is vastly different than a multi-billion dollar corporation using their monopolistic power to increase their never-ending profits.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    Supermarkets are very low profit margin businesses. Probably the lowest.
- everforward 2y ago
  Without dealing with the morality, I think practically it doesn’t lead to good outcomes. How will you feel when customers do the same, and try to get as much as they can for as little as possible? It’s free to buy an umbrella and then return it when it stops raining. Is that less ethical than surge pricing? It’s based on the same premise; their need for an umbrella now makes the umbrella worthless so they regret the decision. It erodes trust in the market. It shows consumers that businesses are willing to capitalize on their inelastic demands, which encourages responses in kind. I would wager consumers find it less unethical to abuse returns or steal from price gouging vendors. On a long enough timeline as a common enough practice, I think we all lose. Those frustrations become crippling market inefficiencies and both customers and producers are worse off.
  - gruez 2y ago
    >It’s free to buy an umbrella and then return it when it stops raining. Is that less ethical than surge pricing? It’s based on the same premise; their need for an umbrella now makes the umbrella worthless so they regret the decision. That's easily solvable with a clause in the return policy like "no returns if the product is used". AFAIK electronics retailers have added similar clauses because people were buying TVs for the superbowl and then returning them afterwards. More likely though, a place that sells umbrellas, especially in tourist areas would have a "no refund" policy.
    - everforward 2y ago
      Sure, you can argue with customers about whether it’s used or not. They’ll probably just file chargebacks and let you argue with their credit card company. The specific actions aren’t really the point, the point is that it rapidly becomes an antagonistic relationship, which is bad for the market in aggregate.
      - gruez 2y ago
        >They’ll probably just file chargebacks and let you argue with their credit card company. aka. "we do a little wire fraud" More seriously, if the merchant has a clearly documented "no refunds" policy they'll probably prevail in chargeback. Also, if you're the type of person who's going to chargeback a $10 umbrella, you're probably not going to have a credit card to do chargebacks with for long. >The specific actions aren’t really the point, the point is that it rapidly becomes an antagonistic relationship, which is bad for the market in aggregate. Having a "no refunds" policy is an "antagonistic relationship" now?
- josefresco 2y ago
  Is it okay for the flea market host to charge you a higher vendor fee on sunny days? What about if the day started cloudy, and then at noon it got sunny - would you be okay with paying a higher fee for the 2nd part of your day?
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    That’s how pricing already works. I would bet summer flea market days cost more, due to the higher probability of more customers, due to the higher probability of good weather days. Airlines/hotels/rental cars/theme parks charge more for days where demand is anticipated to be higher. Any expiring good works this way.
    - josefresco 2y ago
      > I would bet summer flea market days cost more Sample size of 1 but my local flea market does not. The fee is the fee, rain or shine.
standardUser 2y ago
The fact that we don't have surge pricing on everything is a market inefficiency that only exists due to the lack of technology. This seems inevitable, unless we legislate against it (what detractors could accurately call price fixing).
- JohnFen 2y ago
  Surge pricing is just automated price gouging.
  - gruez 2y ago
    Do you think commodity markets are "price gouging", given that prices there are dictated by supply and demand, which is essentially "surge pricing"? eg. Russia invades Ukraine -> oil prices go up
    - JohnFen 2y ago
      Commodity markets are essentially auctions. That's a completely different thing. I do think if we conducted retail sales using that model, it would be very damaging to most real people.
      - gruez 2y ago
        >I do think if we conducted retail sales using that model, it would be very damaging to most real people. Is that really the case? Gas prices change daily and are closely correlated with crude oil prices.
        ohmyiv 2y ago
        > Gas prices change daily and are closely correlated with crude oil prices. I think you missed the first part of the comment where they addressed that: >Commodity markets are essentially auctions. That's a completely different thing.
victor106 2y ago
And what happens if I pickup a product at X price and it changes to Y by the time I get to pay for it?
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
  Maybe there's a grace period where you still pay the lower price for 30 minutes to compensate Assuming they don't all crash and get replaced with paper
cortesoft 2y ago
> can we not have surge pricing for some things? Isn't surge pricing how you prevent shortages? If you are going to the store for milk, would you rather have a 50% chance to be able to buy it at $3, or a 100% chance to buy it at a variable price between $2 and $4?
- rat9988 2y ago
  In the second case someone else is not buying, so if we are not all buying it, at least we can have it cheaper.
  - cortesoft 2y ago
    Right, but not everyone wants it equally. Some people are like, "I kind of like milk sometimes so I'll buy it if it's cheap" while others are like "my kids need to drink milk to survive I'll buy it no matter what". Surge pricing can help make sure the "kinda want it maybe" people aren't taking supply from the "I really really need it" folks
- semi-extrinsic 2y ago
  Surge pricing does not increase supply, and by design it does not decrease demand to the point where demand is less than supply. The end result is that exactly the same number of people can buy exactly the same products. The only difference is that companies make more money from selling the same products, and that products in short supply are distributed more towards the people with deeper pockets.
  - gruez 2y ago
    >The end result is that exactly the same number of people can buy exactly the same products. Right, but arguably with surge pricing it can put the limited supply into people who need it the most. Without price gouging laws/price controls, no matter how badly/ambivalent about buying the milk, you'll buy it. Upping the price forces everyone to weigh how badly they need the milk, and ensures that people who need it the most gets it. Of course, the usual caveat of "willingness/ability to pay =/= neediness" applies, but price is probably the best mechanism we have short of setting up a Bureau of Rationing and having everyone fill out a 10 page application justifying why they need milk.
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
They should charge more for water and frame it as a discount on cold days
- JohnFen 2y ago
  I would prefer that by a lot, to be honest. At least then there's a baseline price that you can rely on.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
akira2501 2y ago
If it's hot outside shouldn't you also raise the price you pay for labor? If it's "harder" for you to deliver ice cream, then it's certainly "harder" for your workers to operate your store. I'm sure that will all trickle down.
- golergka 2y ago
  Night shift premiums have been a thing for a long time. You'd need another mechanism to make labour market effective at per-hour basis to adjust for the weather.

by ohmyiv 2y ago

delichon 2y ago

I've spent a lot of time selling at flea markets. I try to get as much as the market will bear, moment to moment. I would probably ask more for an umbrella if it started to rain. Is that wrong?

ohmyiv 2y ago
I'd have to think about it more. However, my first thought (which is not always correct), if you know that it might rain, then raise the prices beforehand, not when it starts to rain. That just feels like an extra tax. A lot of stores increase their prices when they're expecting something like bad/good weather, events, etc., and it's fine for me. But when prices are increased momentarily due to a sudden need, that just feels bad for the customers. And it's not just me. A lot of people feel that way. That's why there's such a negative connotation to surge pricing. As a small scenario, if I came to your booth when it isn't raining and asked about umbrella prices and you quoted a price, would you respect that price if I came back later if it started raining? If yes, then great. If not, and you raise the price, do you think that I won't say negative things about your booth to others? You may gain a few dollars in the short term, but overall you may lose more than the few dollars you gained. And a reason I said I'd have to think about it: A solo person selling to a small flea market affects a lot less people than a major grocery chain. Like even if you did raise the price to me when it started raining, I wouldn't feel bad, knowing that you're just a small seller. When a large multi-billion dollar revenue chain does it, it feels bad, since they're just taking advantage and don't give a damn. Side note: I stopped using Uber during surge pricing due to the fact the driver doesn't actually get a good portion of it. If the driver got all or most of the extra pricing because they're the one's stuck in traffic, I probably wouldn't mind.
- cortesoft 2y ago
  > But when prices are increased momentarily due to a sudden need, that just feels bad for the customers. If 100 people come into your store to buy the 50 umbrellas you carry, isn't it better for everyone to raise the prices? Some of those 100 might not REALLY need an umbrella, and are just buying it because they think they should (or to resell later!). If you raise the prices, you drive those buyers away and leave more product for the people who need it the most.
y42 2y ago
you can't compare this. Walmart is huge and probably has, in some areas, some kind of monopoly. If you sell your stuff on a flea market, I can deal with you to get a price that suits both of us. You have competition all around you, easy to reach, easy to compare. You are selling umbrellas, Walmart is selling water, one of if not the most basic food, for a maximum profit. The additional profit goes straight into your pocket. Same for Walmart, it's not like the employees somehow benefit from a price raise. Yes, the free market works like that: demand and offer control the price. But at some point this reaches the area of immorality.
ryaneager 2y ago
A single individual at a flea market is vastly different than a multi-billion dollar corporation using their monopolistic power to increase their never-ending profits.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  Supermarkets are very low profit margin businesses. Probably the lowest.
everforward 2y ago
Without dealing with the morality, I think practically it doesn’t lead to good outcomes. How will you feel when customers do the same, and try to get as much as they can for as little as possible? It’s free to buy an umbrella and then return it when it stops raining. Is that less ethical than surge pricing? It’s based on the same premise; their need for an umbrella now makes the umbrella worthless so they regret the decision. It erodes trust in the market. It shows consumers that businesses are willing to capitalize on their inelastic demands, which encourages responses in kind. I would wager consumers find it less unethical to abuse returns or steal from price gouging vendors. On a long enough timeline as a common enough practice, I think we all lose. Those frustrations become crippling market inefficiencies and both customers and producers are worse off.
- gruez 2y ago
  >It’s free to buy an umbrella and then return it when it stops raining. Is that less ethical than surge pricing? It’s based on the same premise; their need for an umbrella now makes the umbrella worthless so they regret the decision. That's easily solvable with a clause in the return policy like "no returns if the product is used". AFAIK electronics retailers have added similar clauses because people were buying TVs for the superbowl and then returning them afterwards. More likely though, a place that sells umbrellas, especially in tourist areas would have a "no refund" policy.
  - everforward 2y ago
    Sure, you can argue with customers about whether it’s used or not. They’ll probably just file chargebacks and let you argue with their credit card company. The specific actions aren’t really the point, the point is that it rapidly becomes an antagonistic relationship, which is bad for the market in aggregate.
    - gruez 2y ago
      >They’ll probably just file chargebacks and let you argue with their credit card company. aka. "we do a little wire fraud" More seriously, if the merchant has a clearly documented "no refunds" policy they'll probably prevail in chargeback. Also, if you're the type of person who's going to chargeback a $10 umbrella, you're probably not going to have a credit card to do chargebacks with for long. >The specific actions aren’t really the point, the point is that it rapidly becomes an antagonistic relationship, which is bad for the market in aggregate. Having a "no refunds" policy is an "antagonistic relationship" now?
josefresco 2y ago
Is it okay for the flea market host to charge you a higher vendor fee on sunny days? What about if the day started cloudy, and then at noon it got sunny - would you be okay with paying a higher fee for the 2nd part of your day?
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  That’s how pricing already works. I would bet summer flea market days cost more, due to the higher probability of more customers, due to the higher probability of good weather days. Airlines/hotels/rental cars/theme parks charge more for days where demand is anticipated to be higher. Any expiring good works this way.
  - josefresco 2y ago
    > I would bet summer flea market days cost more Sample size of 1 but my local flea market does not. The fee is the fee, rain or shine.

standardUser 2y ago

The fact that we don't have surge pricing on everything is a market inefficiency that only exists due to the lack of technology. This seems inevitable, unless we legislate against it (what detractors could accurately call price fixing).

JohnFen 2y ago
Surge pricing is just automated price gouging.
- gruez 2y ago
  Do you think commodity markets are "price gouging", given that prices there are dictated by supply and demand, which is essentially "surge pricing"? eg. Russia invades Ukraine -> oil prices go up
  - JohnFen 2y ago
    Commodity markets are essentially auctions. That's a completely different thing. I do think if we conducted retail sales using that model, it would be very damaging to most real people.
    - gruez 2y ago
      >I do think if we conducted retail sales using that model, it would be very damaging to most real people. Is that really the case? Gas prices change daily and are closely correlated with crude oil prices.
      - ohmyiv 2y ago
        > Gas prices change daily and are closely correlated with crude oil prices. I think you missed the first part of the comment where they addressed that: >Commodity markets are essentially auctions. That's a completely different thing.

victor106 2y ago

And what happens if I pickup a product at X price and it changes to Y by the time I get to pay for it?

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
Maybe there's a grace period where you still pay the lower price for 30 minutes to compensate Assuming they don't all crash and get replaced with paper

cortesoft 2y ago

> can we not have surge pricing for some things? Isn't surge pricing how you prevent shortages? If you are going to the store for milk, would you rather have a 50% chance to be able to buy it at $3, or a 100% chance to buy it at a variable price between $2 and $4?

rat9988 2y ago
In the second case someone else is not buying, so if we are not all buying it, at least we can have it cheaper.
- cortesoft 2y ago
  Right, but not everyone wants it equally. Some people are like, "I kind of like milk sometimes so I'll buy it if it's cheap" while others are like "my kids need to drink milk to survive I'll buy it no matter what". Surge pricing can help make sure the "kinda want it maybe" people aren't taking supply from the "I really really need it" folks
semi-extrinsic 2y ago
Surge pricing does not increase supply, and by design it does not decrease demand to the point where demand is less than supply. The end result is that exactly the same number of people can buy exactly the same products. The only difference is that companies make more money from selling the same products, and that products in short supply are distributed more towards the people with deeper pockets.
- gruez 2y ago
  >The end result is that exactly the same number of people can buy exactly the same products. Right, but arguably with surge pricing it can put the limited supply into people who need it the most. Without price gouging laws/price controls, no matter how badly/ambivalent about buying the milk, you'll buy it. Upping the price forces everyone to weigh how badly they need the milk, and ensures that people who need it the most gets it. Of course, the usual caveat of "willingness/ability to pay =/= neediness" applies, but price is probably the best mechanism we have short of setting up a Bureau of Rationing and having everyone fill out a 10 page application justifying why they need milk.

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago

They should charge more for water and frame it as a discount on cold days

JohnFen 2y ago
I would prefer that by a lot, to be honest. At least then there's a baseline price that you can rely on.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

akira2501 2y ago

If it's hot outside shouldn't you also raise the price you pay for labor? If it's "harder" for you to deliver ice cream, then it's certainly "harder" for your workers to operate your store. I'm sure that will all trickle down.

golergka 2y ago
Night shift premiums have been a thing for a long time. You'd need another mechanism to make labour market effective at per-hour basis to adjust for the weather.