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This is a bit like denying the English King Arthur because the bulk of them are descended from the Saxons that King Arthur was supposed to have been fighting.

This is a bit like denying the English King Arthur because the bulk of them are descended from the Saxons that King Arthur was supposed to have been fighting. Our connection to the land is no less real than our connection to our ancestors from 2000+ years ago—both are largely social constructs, made up of stories that we tell with our modern friends and family. I don't see any compelling reason to say that the modern Greeks are more entitled to Alexander's legacy than the modern Macedonians, given that neither ethnic group is actually descended from Alexander (his family was all murdered) and neither culture bears any resemblance to the culture of Alexander.

coldtea 2y ago
>This is a bit like denying the English King Arthur because the bulk of them are descended from the Saxons that King Arthur was supposed to have been fighting No, it's more like denying WASP Americans the native american heritage. Even ignoring the clouded history between the two groups, the former simply came later and have nothing to do with it. >I don't see any compelling reason to say that the modern Greeks are more entitled to Alexander's legacy than the modern Macedonians, given that neither ethnic group is actually descended from Alexander (his family was all murdered). The claims of legacy is not about having Alexander's family DNA - it's about historical tracing and culture and so on. In any case, even DNA wise, ancient to modern Greeks are quite close according to related studies (and unlike some western racist prejudices in the past centuries, dismissing modern Greeks right to their ancestry). >and neither culture bears any resemblance to the culture of Alexander Says who? Greeks have been speaking and developing the Greek culture and language since before the times of Alexander. And Greek vocabulary as developed at the time of Alexander's expansion, is still easily understood by modern Greeks. Things did change, as they do everywhere - a culture changed after 2.3 millenia of development, is not the same as it being something alien that came from nowhere. Does 16th or even 19th century US culture look like the modern one, if seen superficially? Not. However if traced back, and seen as a series of historical developments, it's a specific stream, discreet than say Mexican or Canadian culture or whatever. And that's just a few centuries. And of course, there being a big difference to 2024 US culture to 1780 US culture doesn't mean current Americans don't have a claim to the Founding Fathers, or Poe, or Mark Twain or whatever - or that suddenly Canadians can lay claim to those things.
drexlspivey 2y ago
> I don't see any compelling reason to say that the modern Greeks are more entitled to Alexander's legacy than the modern Macedonians, given that neither ethnic group is actually descended from Alexander (his family was all murdered) and neither culture bears any resemblance to the culture of Alexander. So Italians are not any more entitled to Caesar's Legacy than the Japanese because Caesar lived thousand of years ago? Modern Greeks are descendents of Ancients Greeks while modern Northern Macedonians are not. Alexander was an Ancient Greek living in Ancient Macedonia.
- deleted 2y ago
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- zozbot234 2y ago
  Demosthenes was an Ancient Greek who called the Macedons barbaroi, as in, not Greek. That's pretty clear-cut. He went as far as to say that Philip of Macedon, father of Alexander the Great "... is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honour, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave".
  - d_tr 2y ago
    "Alexander" ("Aleksandros") and "Philip" ("Philippos") are very Greek names though. They are composite words with very clear meanings which any Greek with basic literacy can understand, because they use "αλέξι-", "άνδρας", "φίλος" and "ίππος" every day. This sounds more clear-cut than an instance of Greeks from different regions shitting on each other. In any case, the notion that the people of North Macedonia have anything to do with Alexander is laughable, as Kiro Gligorov himself stated.
  - drexlspivey 2y ago
    Macedons spoke the Greek language. Philip's and Alexander's names are Greek. Philip launched a successful military campaign to unite all Greeks. Are you seriously arguing that Philip and Alexander were Slavs?
d_tr 2y ago
> neither culture bears any resemblance to the culture of Alexander. Language, to name just one, maybe the most important component of a culture.

coldtea 2y ago

>This is a bit like denying the English King Arthur because the bulk of them are descended from the Saxons that King Arthur was supposed to have been fighting No, it's more like denying WASP Americans the native american heritage. Even ignoring the clouded history between the two groups, the former simply came later and have nothing to do with it. >I don't see any compelling reason to say that the modern Greeks are more entitled to Alexander's legacy than the modern Macedonians, given that neither ethnic group is actually descended from Alexander (his family was all murdered). The claims of legacy is not about having Alexander's family DNA - it's about historical tracing and culture and so on. In any case, even DNA wise, ancient to modern Greeks are quite close according to related studies (and unlike some western racist prejudices in the past centuries, dismissing modern Greeks right to their ancestry). >and neither culture bears any resemblance to the culture of Alexander Says who? Greeks have been speaking and developing the Greek culture and language since before the times of Alexander. And Greek vocabulary as developed at the time of Alexander's expansion, is still easily understood by modern Greeks. Things did change, as they do everywhere - a culture changed after 2.3 millenia of development, is not the same as it being something alien that came from nowhere. Does 16th or even 19th century US culture look like the modern one, if seen superficially? Not. However if traced back, and seen as a series of historical developments, it's a specific stream, discreet than say Mexican or Canadian culture or whatever. And that's just a few centuries. And of course, there being a big difference to 2024 US culture to 1780 US culture doesn't mean current Americans don't have a claim to the Founding Fathers, or Poe, or Mark Twain or whatever - or that suddenly Canadians can lay claim to those things.

drexlspivey 2y ago

> I don't see any compelling reason to say that the modern Greeks are more entitled to Alexander's legacy than the modern Macedonians, given that neither ethnic group is actually descended from Alexander (his family was all murdered) and neither culture bears any resemblance to the culture of Alexander. So Italians are not any more entitled to Caesar's Legacy than the Japanese because Caesar lived thousand of years ago? Modern Greeks are descendents of Ancients Greeks while modern Northern Macedonians are not. Alexander was an Ancient Greek living in Ancient Macedonia.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
zozbot234 2y ago
Demosthenes was an Ancient Greek who called the Macedons barbaroi, as in, not Greek. That's pretty clear-cut. He went as far as to say that Philip of Macedon, father of Alexander the Great "... is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honour, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave".
- d_tr 2y ago
  "Alexander" ("Aleksandros") and "Philip" ("Philippos") are very Greek names though. They are composite words with very clear meanings which any Greek with basic literacy can understand, because they use "αλέξι-", "άνδρας", "φίλος" and "ίππος" every day. This sounds more clear-cut than an instance of Greeks from different regions shitting on each other. In any case, the notion that the people of North Macedonia have anything to do with Alexander is laughable, as Kiro Gligorov himself stated.
- drexlspivey 2y ago
  Macedons spoke the Greek language. Philip's and Alexander's names are Greek. Philip launched a successful military campaign to unite all Greeks. Are you seriously arguing that Philip and Alexander were Slavs?

d_tr 2y ago

> neither culture bears any resemblance to the culture of Alexander. Language, to name just one, maybe the most important component of a culture.