3 ms·

There have been a lot of such materials over the years, but for some strange reason, none of them ever gets commercialized. We could have been using them all ov

There have been a lot of such materials over the years, but for some strange reason, none of them ever gets commercialized. We could have been using them all over the place, on all surfaces that expose to sunlight, but they're nowhere to be found.

sottol 2y ago
Probably because they're impossibly hard or expensive to manufacture at scale and nobody was willing to front the money to kickstart the research to commercialize.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  "Silver nanowires" is probably the limiting factor on this one. Silver isn't that rare but it's certainly not cheap compared to normal textile fibers.
  - VygmraMGVl 2y ago
    Also probably a skin and lung irritant. Lots of people have contact allergies to macroscale silver and nanowires tend to get embedded in cells in soft tissue.
    - OutOfHere 2y ago
      Upon further research, it turns out that nano silver gradually accumulates in the brain and the testes. It is otherwise eliminated from the body, but not so easily from these organs. As such, it is not safe for long-term exposure. References: Accumulation of Silver Nanoparticles in Brain and Testes during Long-Term Ingestion to Mammals (2017) Disturbance in Mammalian Cognition Caused by Accumulation of Silver in Brain (2021) (pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
    - OutOfHere 2y ago
      Regarding nanowires, for what it's worth, nano silver is used as a highly effective antimicrobial skin cream, and none of its users complain of an allergy. In this way it also accelerates wound healing. It is even more benign than some skin antibiotics that trigger an allergy. Given this evidence, I don't think nanoscale use of silver in clothing is going to be a a concern for the vast majority of people. Disclaimer: Silver is a slight poison and should not be used for a prolonged duration.
      - serf 2y ago
        >and none of its users complain of an allergy. I have a hard time imagining that's true for any material, ever.
      - throwaway290 2y ago
        I think the concern is about when the clothing starts falling apart and nanowires end up in the air of your room and eventually your lungs/stomach, like nanoplastics cross into tissue and individual cells, accumulate, turn up in sperm/placenta etc.
        OutOfHere 2y ago
        It turns out that some small amount of nano silver is perfectly manageable by the body, although I make no claim for the lungs. People even apply or drink it as an antimicrobial medicine without issue. It's when they take too much silver over time that it becomes an issue.
        throwaway290 2y ago
        The key is "nano wires". What we drink and eat gets pooped out and doesn't permeate organ tissue and cells. Nano stuff does.
        OutOfHere 2y ago
        Upon further research, it turns out that nano silver gradually accumulates in the brain and the testes. It is otherwise eliminated from the body, but not so easily from these organs. As such, it is not safe for long-term exposure. References: Accumulation of Silver Nanoparticles in Brain and Testes during Long-Term Ingestion to Mammals (2017) Disturbance in Mammalian Cognition Caused by Accumulation of Silver in Brain (2021) (pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
freedomben 2y ago
From the things I've seen, it almost always comes down to IP issues clashing with economic realities. The person holding the rights either can't get it done and/or won't license it to people who can (at economically viable rates), so it languishes. It's especially frustrating since the whole IP system was supposed to encourage innovation.
- throwaway290 2y ago
  Can you tell more about the things you've seen? If no one offers enough money, perhaps their research found it's just a bunch of hot air and not actually a viable design.
  - OutOfHere 2y ago
    That's not at all what the parent comment is saying. Also, such materials are real.
    - throwaway290 2y ago
      > That's not at all what the parent comment is saying. That's what I'm saying. It's how discussion works, he said one thing, I said something different. > Also, such materials are real. Real but not feasible for any reason. The other commenter didn't give any info that would deny that. You didn't, too. I don't blame you, it would take non trivial amount of time and money to just understand if an idea doesn't work out in real world. Maybe manufacturing too expensive, maybe there's some blocking regulation, maybe health hazards for workers, environmental hazards... But yeah of course a random guy on HN knows for sure it's the IP law that's always ruining things. Who would care about potential drawbacks of some tech, we got PFAS into blood of probably everyone now so why stop there?
  - freedomben 2y ago
    > If no one offers enough money, perhaps their research found it's just a bunch of hot air and not actually a viable design. I won't go into specifics because none of them are my story to tell, and I don't have enough inside information to say with certainty anyway, but their research clearly showed it was not just a bunch of hot air, but the economic viability was mixed and often not there. In one case, it was only a marginal improvement over something that was already in high production, and the economies of scale made it so that this slightly better product would initially cost 100x more to produce, and even at moderate scale still 10x. My friend was offered some small amount (IIRC it was like $5,000) by some research firm to buy out the patent. He refused because he felt it was worth a lot more, but AFAIK it never ended up going anywhere. He (like the other cases) was inundated with (often conflicting) advice from a ton of angles, by many people who wanted to profit from the whole thing. It was pretty disheartening to watch. There was another one where a friend of a friend who was a professor discovered a way to improve efficiency in transmissions. They ended up raising substantial money but wanted too much to license out the IP to auto-makers, and the auto-makers walked. They ended up with essentially nothing and shortly afterward an even better CV transmission was discovered/invented, rendering his design obsolete anyway.
VirusNewbie 2y ago
It said they compared it to “broadband emitter fabric” which sounds like it is commercialized? I don’t know what the common name for that is though.
btilly 2y ago
The two main problems are how to manufacture them at scale, and how durable they are. A thin outer layer on your clothing tends to get fairly rough treatment. Think about sitting down, then scooting your butt back. How much force was that? Amd if this is anywhere other than the outer layer, it won't work as well.
mensetmanusman 2y ago
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/energy-conservation-us/applications/passive-radiative-cooling/ https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/energy-conservation-us/applicati... 3M sells them for grocery store roofs in the US.

sottol 2y ago

Probably because they're impossibly hard or expensive to manufacture at scale and nobody was willing to front the money to kickstart the research to commercialize.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
SoftTalker 2y ago
"Silver nanowires" is probably the limiting factor on this one. Silver isn't that rare but it's certainly not cheap compared to normal textile fibers.
- VygmraMGVl 2y ago
  Also probably a skin and lung irritant. Lots of people have contact allergies to macroscale silver and nanowires tend to get embedded in cells in soft tissue.
  - OutOfHere 2y ago
    Upon further research, it turns out that nano silver gradually accumulates in the brain and the testes. It is otherwise eliminated from the body, but not so easily from these organs. As such, it is not safe for long-term exposure. References: Accumulation of Silver Nanoparticles in Brain and Testes during Long-Term Ingestion to Mammals (2017) Disturbance in Mammalian Cognition Caused by Accumulation of Silver in Brain (2021) (pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
  - OutOfHere 2y ago
    Regarding nanowires, for what it's worth, nano silver is used as a highly effective antimicrobial skin cream, and none of its users complain of an allergy. In this way it also accelerates wound healing. It is even more benign than some skin antibiotics that trigger an allergy. Given this evidence, I don't think nanoscale use of silver in clothing is going to be a a concern for the vast majority of people. Disclaimer: Silver is a slight poison and should not be used for a prolonged duration.
    - serf 2y ago
      >and none of its users complain of an allergy. I have a hard time imagining that's true for any material, ever.
    - throwaway290 2y ago
      I think the concern is about when the clothing starts falling apart and nanowires end up in the air of your room and eventually your lungs/stomach, like nanoplastics cross into tissue and individual cells, accumulate, turn up in sperm/placenta etc.
      - OutOfHere 2y ago
        It turns out that some small amount of nano silver is perfectly manageable by the body, although I make no claim for the lungs. People even apply or drink it as an antimicrobial medicine without issue. It's when they take too much silver over time that it becomes an issue.
        throwaway290 2y ago
        The key is "nano wires". What we drink and eat gets pooped out and doesn't permeate organ tissue and cells. Nano stuff does.
        OutOfHere 2y ago
        Upon further research, it turns out that nano silver gradually accumulates in the brain and the testes. It is otherwise eliminated from the body, but not so easily from these organs. As such, it is not safe for long-term exposure. References: Accumulation of Silver Nanoparticles in Brain and Testes during Long-Term Ingestion to Mammals (2017) Disturbance in Mammalian Cognition Caused by Accumulation of Silver in Brain (2021) (pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)

freedomben 2y ago

From the things I've seen, it almost always comes down to IP issues clashing with economic realities. The person holding the rights either can't get it done and/or won't license it to people who can (at economically viable rates), so it languishes. It's especially frustrating since the whole IP system was supposed to encourage innovation.

throwaway290 2y ago
Can you tell more about the things you've seen? If no one offers enough money, perhaps their research found it's just a bunch of hot air and not actually a viable design.
- OutOfHere 2y ago
  That's not at all what the parent comment is saying. Also, such materials are real.
  - throwaway290 2y ago
    > That's not at all what the parent comment is saying. That's what I'm saying. It's how discussion works, he said one thing, I said something different. > Also, such materials are real. Real but not feasible for any reason. The other commenter didn't give any info that would deny that. You didn't, too. I don't blame you, it would take non trivial amount of time and money to just understand if an idea doesn't work out in real world. Maybe manufacturing too expensive, maybe there's some blocking regulation, maybe health hazards for workers, environmental hazards... But yeah of course a random guy on HN knows for sure it's the IP law that's always ruining things. Who would care about potential drawbacks of some tech, we got PFAS into blood of probably everyone now so why stop there?
- freedomben 2y ago
  > If no one offers enough money, perhaps their research found it's just a bunch of hot air and not actually a viable design. I won't go into specifics because none of them are my story to tell, and I don't have enough inside information to say with certainty anyway, but their research clearly showed it was not just a bunch of hot air, but the economic viability was mixed and often not there. In one case, it was only a marginal improvement over something that was already in high production, and the economies of scale made it so that this slightly better product would initially cost 100x more to produce, and even at moderate scale still 10x. My friend was offered some small amount (IIRC it was like $5,000) by some research firm to buy out the patent. He refused because he felt it was worth a lot more, but AFAIK it never ended up going anywhere. He (like the other cases) was inundated with (often conflicting) advice from a ton of angles, by many people who wanted to profit from the whole thing. It was pretty disheartening to watch. There was another one where a friend of a friend who was a professor discovered a way to improve efficiency in transmissions. They ended up raising substantial money but wanted too much to license out the IP to auto-makers, and the auto-makers walked. They ended up with essentially nothing and shortly afterward an even better CV transmission was discovered/invented, rendering his design obsolete anyway.

VirusNewbie 2y ago

It said they compared it to “broadband emitter fabric” which sounds like it is commercialized? I don’t know what the common name for that is though.

btilly 2y ago

The two main problems are how to manufacture them at scale, and how durable they are. A thin outer layer on your clothing tends to get fairly rough treatment. Think about sitting down, then scooting your butt back. How much force was that? Amd if this is anywhere other than the outer layer, it won't work as well.

mensetmanusman 2y ago

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/energy-conservation-us/applications/passive-radiative-cooling/ https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/energy-conservation-us/applicati... 3M sells them for grocery store roofs in the US.