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I think Chomsky is a linguist really more famous and respected among non-linguists than actual experts in the field. I don't think modern linguistics - particu

by derriz 2y ago

I think Chomsky is a linguist really more famous and respected among non-linguists than actual experts in the field. I don't think modern linguistics - particularly applied linguistics for example in the area of language acquisition - references Chomsky. His theories are unfalsifiable and un-empirical and thus, for me, unscientific. This discussion is typical. Chomsky's definition of "recursion" - like that of a "language organ" - has become completely plastic. In his initial work, it was deeply tied to the same notion in formal grammar theory but is constantly redefined and evolving as the initial notion becomes more and more dubious. The "human language is unique in that it is _recursive_" theory has no practical application and has provided no path for advancement in the field of language pedagogy for example. Watch me chew up a bunch of karma dismissing Chomsky's theories of language. It's what often happens with comments that question his theories of language - I don't know why it's seemingly impossible to just admire his politics without feeling the need to vigorously defend his 60 or 70-year-old theories of language which have long been abandoned in the field.

foobarqux 2y ago
It would genuinely shock me if Chomsky wasn't the most cited author for works published today even if you exclude works that are dismissive of him. The reason the specifics of Chomsky's proposals are changing is that it isn't a solved problem and he and others are continuing to try to advance the understanding by revising proposals in light of better arguments, simpler explanation and (contrary to what you say, see [1] which lists some examples) experimental evidence. In Chomsky's most recent book he himself quotes Wheeler: "Surely someday, we can believe, we will grasp the central idea of it all as so simple, so beautiful, so compelling that we will all say to each other, ‘Oh, how could it have been otherwise! How could we all have been so blind so long!’". I think people have a hard time understanding this because it is one of the few nascent sciences and therefore no one has figured out the fundamental theories. And if some specific proposal like X-bar theory is falsified or supplanted by something else that doesn't falsify the core ideas of universal grammar or the minimalist program. You say that it isn't possible to provide evidence that these are false but Moro for example conducted experiments comparing hierarchical and linear language processing that potentially would have provided reasonable evidence against language being hierarchical had they shown linear languages were processed similarly (instead they support it). The reason you should be downvoted is that you made a bunch of evidence free assertions; You could have said "Neil Bohr's work has been completely falsified and is of dubious value" with the same amount of supporting argument. [1] https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/007363 https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/007363
bbor 2y ago
Well he calls that whole field “not real linguistics” basically, so I think it makes sense that they wouldn’t accept his theories! Whatever you call the two things, I feel like 1. “what are the neural structures and programs that produce language” and 2. “what languages have humans used to communicate in specific historical contexts, and how do these practices relate to each other?” …are both worthwhile questions, and they obviously inform each other. But don’t you see where he’s coming from by calling the former “the biological study of language production” and the latter “the anthropological study of language usage”? I’m interested to see you usually loose points! That brings me joy as a (non-academic, self-employed) chomskian, even tho it’s obviously infuriating people are still downvoting based on differences of opinion in 2024. My view is the opposite of yours: almost every corner of the internet has dismissed Chomsky as unempirical and also disproven by recent cross-cultural studies (??) and LLMs, from Hinton to the Stanford Phil page on linguistics to the Wiki and Britannica articles. I frequently see anti-Chomsky papers on HN and in my lit reviews from the connectionist/positivist camp in general, but that’s obviously a terribly biased survey. Perhaps we all have confirmation bias to see our “team” as the underdogs… In terms of debating specifics (no pressure to respond, your outlook is very valid): He’s still being cited a lot (160K in 2023 compared to recent peak of 210K in 2017), but of course that could all be refutations and/or non-linguists. Ultimately I absolutely agree that applied linguistics has far more practitioners in the US (the “west”?) today, but I don’t think that’s necessarily any kind of refutation of the merits of theoretical work. I’m currently engaged in implementing general ideas of Chomsky’s into a cognitive model for AI, and I definitely think it’s a more productive theory than you’re giving it credit for. For one, the two basic observations “basically all linguistic inference is done by procedurally merging symbols and signs” and “what separates humans from animals is the ability to introspectively index and merge symbols and signs effectively” are essential pillars of my whole paradigm — without them I wouldn’t event know where to start! I think it’s much better than some competing “grand narratives” for human sciences like Behaviorism or Postmodern Relativism, but of course it’s far from perfect and surely has discouraged some valuable work over the years. I agree that it isn’t empirical, but only because it’s a guiding idea/standpoint/perspective and not what Chomsky would call a “scientifically defined term”. UG/nativism/minimalism gradually loose or gain parsimony in relation to our body of evidence over time, but they’re not consistent or specific enough to be fundamentally proven or disproven anytime soon IMO

by derriz 2y ago

foobarqux 2y ago

It would genuinely shock me if Chomsky wasn't the most cited author for works published today even if you exclude works that are dismissive of him. The reason the specifics of Chomsky's proposals are changing is that it isn't a solved problem and he and others are continuing to try to advance the understanding by revising proposals in light of better arguments, simpler explanation and (contrary to what you say, see [1] which lists some examples) experimental evidence. In Chomsky's most recent book he himself quotes Wheeler: "Surely someday, we can believe, we will grasp the central idea of it all as so simple, so beautiful, so compelling that we will all say to each other, ‘Oh, how could it have been otherwise! How could we all have been so blind so long!’". I think people have a hard time understanding this because it is one of the few nascent sciences and therefore no one has figured out the fundamental theories. And if some specific proposal like X-bar theory is falsified or supplanted by something else that doesn't falsify the core ideas of universal grammar or the minimalist program. You say that it isn't possible to provide evidence that these are false but Moro for example conducted experiments comparing hierarchical and linear language processing that potentially would have provided reasonable evidence against language being hierarchical had they shown linear languages were processed similarly (instead they support it). The reason you should be downvoted is that you made a bunch of evidence free assertions; You could have said "Neil Bohr's work has been completely falsified and is of dubious value" with the same amount of supporting argument. [1] https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/007363 https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/007363

bbor 2y ago

Well he calls that whole field “not real linguistics” basically, so I think it makes sense that they wouldn’t accept his theories! Whatever you call the two things, I feel like 1. “what are the neural structures and programs that produce language” and 2. “what languages have humans used to communicate in specific historical contexts, and how do these practices relate to each other?” …are both worthwhile questions, and they obviously inform each other. But don’t you see where he’s coming from by calling the former “the biological study of language production” and the latter “the anthropological study of language usage”? I’m interested to see you usually loose points! That brings me joy as a (non-academic, self-employed) chomskian, even tho it’s obviously infuriating people are still downvoting based on differences of opinion in 2024. My view is the opposite of yours: almost every corner of the internet has dismissed Chomsky as unempirical and also disproven by recent cross-cultural studies (??) and LLMs, from Hinton to the Stanford Phil page on linguistics to the Wiki and Britannica articles. I frequently see anti-Chomsky papers on HN and in my lit reviews from the connectionist/positivist camp in general, but that’s obviously a terribly biased survey. Perhaps we all have confirmation bias to see our “team” as the underdogs… In terms of debating specifics (no pressure to respond, your outlook is very valid): He’s still being cited a lot (160K in 2023 compared to recent peak of 210K in 2017), but of course that could all be refutations and/or non-linguists. Ultimately I absolutely agree that applied linguistics has far more practitioners in the US (the “west”?) today, but I don’t think that’s necessarily any kind of refutation of the merits of theoretical work. I’m currently engaged in implementing general ideas of Chomsky’s into a cognitive model for AI, and I definitely think it’s a more productive theory than you’re giving it credit for. For one, the two basic observations “basically all linguistic inference is done by procedurally merging symbols and signs” and “what separates humans from animals is the ability to introspectively index and merge symbols and signs effectively” are essential pillars of my whole paradigm — without them I wouldn’t event know where to start! I think it’s much better than some competing “grand narratives” for human sciences like Behaviorism or Postmodern Relativism, but of course it’s far from perfect and surely has discouraged some valuable work over the years. I agree that it isn’t empirical, but only because it’s a guiding idea/standpoint/perspective and not what Chomsky would call a “scientifically defined term”. UG/nativism/minimalism gradually loose or gain parsimony in relation to our body of evidence over time, but they’re not consistent or specific enough to be fundamentally proven or disproven anytime soon IMO