4 ms·

The first time I needed to install Linux on my computer was last week because Wireshark didn’t support 802.11 packet capture on Windows or WSL. So, I installed

by sedatk 2y ago

The first time I needed to install Linux on my computer was last week because Wireshark didn’t support 802.11 packet capture on Windows or WSL. So, I installed Ubuntu on my Surface Laptop 3, and my experience had been quite terrible. (Disclaimer: I’m a former Windows engineer, but I’ve also been using Linux since Slackware 3 occasionally) * Setup started in 100% HiDPI scaling, making everything impossible to read. Every time I ran setup, I had to set it to 200% using display settings before I do anything else. * Installation software crashed twice mid-installation. I was only able to complete installation on my third attempt. After the installation, I noticed that Ubuntu doesn’t have the features below out of the box: https://x.com/esesci/status/1803374884858347856?s=46 https://x.com/esesci/status/1803374884858347856?s=46 You either had to go through painful and complicated configuration steps, or install third-party software: * Hybrid sleep (is a must for laptops). * Face login. * Live full disk encryption on demand. I’m actually baffled by this as Bitlocker on Windows makes this trivial. I actually expected FDE to be enabled from the installation by default but I wasn’t even asked. * Fast fractional scaling on HiDPI displays. 200% is just too big and 100% is too small, and 150% hogs the CPU (or GPU?). As I understand, fast fractional scaling is impossible with Linux because fractional scaling is a bitmap operation while it’s just a rendering parameter on Windows. * No factory reset. If you ran a script that messed up your system, your only option is to reinstall the OS. The problem with that is, if you had to install it using a very slow USB stick in the first place, a reset operation also becomes a multi-hour operation while Windows could just use its local recovery image to reinstall itself in a much shorter time. All in all, Ubuntu felt like a huge step back from Windows. I haven’t tried other distros, but I don’t think the difference would be significant for the issues I mentioned. Yes, I also dislike the features in Windows that inconvenience people, but man, does Linux have a long way to go.

freeqaz 2y ago
A lot of that is based on the hardware that you're using it on. If you want to run Linux and go out of your way to find the right hardware (like an Ubuntu certified model[0]) then your experience will be pretty darn close. Fingerprint login, graphics scaling, sleep, and everything works out of the box on the Thinkpad I bought for my non-technical GF to run Ubuntu on. (She installed it herself!) 0: https://ubuntu.com/certified/laptops https://ubuntu.com/certified/laptops
- gitaarik 2y ago
  Indeed, if you get well-supported hardware these become non-issues. This was also one of my learning points when diving into Linux. It's something you have to take into account. Most hardware is made to run Windows, so with most hardware that you get, you don't have a problem when running Windows (apart from Windows itself). With Linux, you are dependent on the community that it made good support for the hardware you're running it on. And unless you're a pro you'll have a very hard time getting to make certain hardware work if it's not well supported. Therefore you should think about the hardware you buy if you want to run Linux. With Windows you don't have to think about it because most hardware is made to run Windows or it's even already pre-installed. Macs have their own dedicated hardware wirh their OS pre-installed so you also don't have to think about it. But with Linux you suddenly have to consider which hardware to buy. It's something you have to get used to coming from Windows / Mac.
- sedatk 2y ago
  Thanks, but I don’t understand what those laptops have that enable high-performance fractional scaling that a Surface Laptop 3 doesn’t. It probably has the same GPU as many laptops in the list have. Or, what does my SL3 lack to prevent it from going to hybrid sleep? Doesn’t make sense to me.
Arainach 2y ago
>As I understand, fast fractional scaling is impossible with Linux because fractional scaling is a bitmap operation while it’s just a rendering parameter on Windows. Windows, like every modern operating system 2006 or newer, has a graphics compositor to do basic things like allow GPU-accelerated window stretching, prevent screen tearing, and so on (OS X had one slightly earlier). Meanwhile while Linux has had multiple modern attempts to build a composited graphics stack (Compiz, Wayland) certain very vocal elements of the Linux community complain about any attempt to build a graphical stack you can't send via carrier pigeon and have dragged their feet or otherwise thwarted wide(r) adoption.
- gertop 2y ago
  For the most part, Windows doesn't achieve fractional/integer scaling by doing gpu-accelerated bitmap scaling. On Windows and MacOS and iOS and Android the GUI toolkits are aware of the scaling factor and draw themselves appropriately. It has nothing to do with the compositor. Some legacy apps on Windows are indeed scaled like you describe, resulting in a blurry mess like on Linux, but they are few and far between.
  - Arainach 2y ago
    That's a fair point. I could also have said "certain very vocal parts of the Linux community have resisted every effort to move to modern UI toolkits". DWM, Direct2D, Direct Composition, and the fact that major Windows UX frameworks use them does allow significant offloading of drawing to GPU instead of CPU, however.
    - erik_seaberg 2y ago
      What happens in the datacenter where you don't have a GPU but each user probably does?
      - Arainach 2y ago
        Remote Desktop Protocol supports those APIs natively and can work with locally accelerated surfaces (RDP is way, way better than VNC or other Linux remote access options, particularly over low bandwidth connections - it's generations better technology).
gertop 2y ago
All good points but you were likely asked for encryption during setup, you just didn't notice (it's at the partition step). You are correct that it's impossible to do after the fact whilst the system is live. LUKS is also not very resilient. Bitlocker stores several copy of its headers in case of sector damage. With luks2 you're SOL.
- sedatk 2y ago
  Basically, I just picked “dual boot” and how much space I wanted for Ubuntu partition. Don’t remember any question about encryption.
numerosix 2y ago
[flagged]
- sedatk 2y ago
  What do you mean by “learn to install and use”? I installed and used it and wrote about the issues in the process. Did you mean “learn not to complain about your problems”? :)
- squidbeak 2y ago
  This reads like a parody of those old stereotypes of arrogant dismissive types - the ones who rubbish new users' experiences and intelligence on the basis that 'it works for me'. You're surely not serious?
ranger207 2y ago
I know this is going to sound stereotypical Linux user-y, but it's really because Ubuntu is pretty terrible nowadays. Several of those are enabled by default on Fedora for example, and Fedora is nowadays about as easy to use as Ubuntu
- gertop 2y ago
  I tried to install Fedora last week but I couldn't because my mouse cursor would disappear when it was over the installer window.
abhinavk 2y ago
It's mainly because of your system of choice. For an alternative OS to run smoothly on a Windows-only device, the manufacturer needs to either have good documentation (so that someone else can do the work) or not do proprietary non-standard stuff. See https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface/wiki/Supported-Devices-and-Features#feature-matrix https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface/wiki/Supporte... If you are using a recent version of Ubuntu, FDE and HiDPi should not be an issue except for old apps. Factory Reset doesn't exist on most desktop distros but things are moving towards other (and better IMHO) approaches. e.g. Deterministic NixOS or Fedora Atomic Desktops. Hybrid Sleep and Face login is not available OOTB but can be configured. I agree with your remaining points.
globular-toast 2y ago
If you'd been riding tricycles your whole life you'd fall off a bicycle the first time. Keep at it. It's worth it.

by sedatk 2y ago

freeqaz 2y ago

A lot of that is based on the hardware that you're using it on. If you want to run Linux and go out of your way to find the right hardware (like an Ubuntu certified model[0]) then your experience will be pretty darn close. Fingerprint login, graphics scaling, sleep, and everything works out of the box on the Thinkpad I bought for my non-technical GF to run Ubuntu on. (She installed it herself!) 0: https://ubuntu.com/certified/laptops https://ubuntu.com/certified/laptops

gitaarik 2y ago
Indeed, if you get well-supported hardware these become non-issues. This was also one of my learning points when diving into Linux. It's something you have to take into account. Most hardware is made to run Windows, so with most hardware that you get, you don't have a problem when running Windows (apart from Windows itself). With Linux, you are dependent on the community that it made good support for the hardware you're running it on. And unless you're a pro you'll have a very hard time getting to make certain hardware work if it's not well supported. Therefore you should think about the hardware you buy if you want to run Linux. With Windows you don't have to think about it because most hardware is made to run Windows or it's even already pre-installed. Macs have their own dedicated hardware wirh their OS pre-installed so you also don't have to think about it. But with Linux you suddenly have to consider which hardware to buy. It's something you have to get used to coming from Windows / Mac.
sedatk 2y ago
Thanks, but I don’t understand what those laptops have that enable high-performance fractional scaling that a Surface Laptop 3 doesn’t. It probably has the same GPU as many laptops in the list have. Or, what does my SL3 lack to prevent it from going to hybrid sleep? Doesn’t make sense to me.

Arainach 2y ago

>As I understand, fast fractional scaling is impossible with Linux because fractional scaling is a bitmap operation while it’s just a rendering parameter on Windows. Windows, like every modern operating system 2006 or newer, has a graphics compositor to do basic things like allow GPU-accelerated window stretching, prevent screen tearing, and so on (OS X had one slightly earlier). Meanwhile while Linux has had multiple modern attempts to build a composited graphics stack (Compiz, Wayland) certain very vocal elements of the Linux community complain about any attempt to build a graphical stack you can't send via carrier pigeon and have dragged their feet or otherwise thwarted wide(r) adoption.

gertop 2y ago
For the most part, Windows doesn't achieve fractional/integer scaling by doing gpu-accelerated bitmap scaling. On Windows and MacOS and iOS and Android the GUI toolkits are aware of the scaling factor and draw themselves appropriately. It has nothing to do with the compositor. Some legacy apps on Windows are indeed scaled like you describe, resulting in a blurry mess like on Linux, but they are few and far between.
- Arainach 2y ago
  That's a fair point. I could also have said "certain very vocal parts of the Linux community have resisted every effort to move to modern UI toolkits". DWM, Direct2D, Direct Composition, and the fact that major Windows UX frameworks use them does allow significant offloading of drawing to GPU instead of CPU, however.
  - erik_seaberg 2y ago
    What happens in the datacenter where you don't have a GPU but each user probably does?
    - Arainach 2y ago
      Remote Desktop Protocol supports those APIs natively and can work with locally accelerated surfaces (RDP is way, way better than VNC or other Linux remote access options, particularly over low bandwidth connections - it's generations better technology).

gertop 2y ago

All good points but you were likely asked for encryption during setup, you just didn't notice (it's at the partition step). You are correct that it's impossible to do after the fact whilst the system is live. LUKS is also not very resilient. Bitlocker stores several copy of its headers in case of sector damage. With luks2 you're SOL.

sedatk 2y ago
Basically, I just picked “dual boot” and how much space I wanted for Ubuntu partition. Don’t remember any question about encryption.

numerosix 2y ago

[flagged]

sedatk 2y ago
What do you mean by “learn to install and use”? I installed and used it and wrote about the issues in the process. Did you mean “learn not to complain about your problems”? :)
squidbeak 2y ago
This reads like a parody of those old stereotypes of arrogant dismissive types - the ones who rubbish new users' experiences and intelligence on the basis that 'it works for me'. You're surely not serious?

ranger207 2y ago

I know this is going to sound stereotypical Linux user-y, but it's really because Ubuntu is pretty terrible nowadays. Several of those are enabled by default on Fedora for example, and Fedora is nowadays about as easy to use as Ubuntu

gertop 2y ago
I tried to install Fedora last week but I couldn't because my mouse cursor would disappear when it was over the installer window.

abhinavk 2y ago

It's mainly because of your system of choice. For an alternative OS to run smoothly on a Windows-only device, the manufacturer needs to either have good documentation (so that someone else can do the work) or not do proprietary non-standard stuff. See https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface/wiki/Supported-Devices-and-Features#feature-matrix https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface/wiki/Supporte... If you are using a recent version of Ubuntu, FDE and HiDPi should not be an issue except for old apps. Factory Reset doesn't exist on most desktop distros but things are moving towards other (and better IMHO) approaches. e.g. Deterministic NixOS or Fedora Atomic Desktops. Hybrid Sleep and Face login is not available OOTB but can be configured. I agree with your remaining points.

globular-toast 2y ago

If you'd been riding tricycles your whole life you'd fall off a bicycle the first time. Keep at it. It's worth it.