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People don't switch operating systems at the drop of a hat. There's got to be a pretty good reason for it. All the people switching away from Windows, those are

People don't switch operating systems at the drop of a hat. There's got to be a pretty good reason for it. All the people switching away from Windows, those are probably users that are lost to Microsoft forever. I get that their money comes from other places, but I bet there's a second-order effect of people who don't use Windows—maybe even people who now hate Windows—not having any desire stick with their other products or services either. It's weird that they don't seem to care about this slow diminution of their brand.

listenallyall 2y ago
- stock is at all-time high - "all the people" is probably actually well under 1% of users - successfully switched all corporate accounts from single-purchase w/ occasional renewal to ongoing monthly subscription - also a lot of of consumer subscriptions - Azure - Github - LinkedIn - OpenAI investment I actually agree with you that the Windows experience is getting worse, quickly. But on balance, seems more is going right than going wrong.
- flakiness 2y ago
  And I think that's why Windows gets worse. They just don't care anymore. I have wanted to like Windows and hoped Microsoft to get serious against these consumer-centric companies like Apple and Google, to use their cloud revenue to pump Windows up. That hasn't happened.
  - WWLink 2y ago
    > Microsoft to get serious against these consumer-centric companies like Apple and Google Microsoft can't do that. It's not in their DNA. Every time Microsoft has tried to make something consumer-centric it ended up flopping eventually. Sometimes things lasted a surprisingly long time! But their consumer-focused stuff like Zune, Xbox, even their keyboards & mice, eventually all kinda lost focus. Windows mobile was a weird one because they tried to use the same formula they always use - a corporate OS that had all sorts of knobs and buttons for SysAdmins to manage corporate phones. You could join a Windows phone to a domain and manage it. Xbox was pretty successful for a while because MS just has so much clout with game developers. Zune flopped HARD. I think the Surface product line has been kinda here and there - a total failure for consumers but some businesses like it... but not many, because most businesses have a relationship with Dell.
    - gaudystead 2y ago
      RIP Zune. It was my favorite music player, especially being able to control it without looking at the controls. Tech industries have developed alternatives, but the intuitive features built into the Zune are something I've yet to see be matched. I suspect they moved some of those same UX engineers to the Surface & phone departments, but MS marketing departments seem to have control over things more than the actual UX designers, aaaand it all went to shit. I sincerely wish more people were able to enjoy the UX that their clever engineers designed, but I suspect their marketing departments were the downfall of those efforts.
  - rkagerer 2y ago
    What OS does Bill Gates use these days?
- tcmart14 2y ago
  I don't think stock would be a good metric. If I had to guess, Windows at this point is probably just a cost center. Their main revenue streams are office362 and azure. The Windows OS itself is just a rounding error. Another way to put it. People aren't buying Microsoft stock because of Windows. They are buying because of Azure and Office365.
- eitally 2y ago
  To be fair, the Windows experience on managed corporate PCs that are imaged without all the fluff and adware is far superior to what consumers get. I frankly don't know why anyone who isn't tied to very specific software requirements would ever choose Windows anymore. I had to replace an aging Pixelbook last year and eventually decided the right decision was to get a Mac. It's stable, the hardware is high quality, it does what it needs to do, most non-enterprise software is available, and the custodian of the operating system isn't licensing my data to 3P advertisers. I almost went Linux -- and have built my own Linux machines dating back about twenty years -- but I just wanted a polished, lightweight laptop I didn't have to worry about. I almost bought a new Chromebook, but the software problem is more acute even if the OS is dead simple, and frankly, the hardware -- ever since the Pixelbook -- has been lacking polish (no matter which OEM you buy from).
  - ghaff 2y ago
    The problem with the Chromebook is that it's basically an educational market product. And that's a different market from most professional users. I'd love a new travel-optimized Chromebook to replace one well out of support. But it really doesn't exist (and there really isn't a perfect MacBook either although the Air isn't bad, if pricey).
- ghaff 2y ago
  Desktop operating systems are increasingly irrelevant (to a first approximation). Windows is still very relevant, especially on servers, but even on corporate desktops; you just don't see a lot of Windows laptops at the sort of events and companies that most of the readers here are probably most familiar with. But it's not like most companies developing software for the largely Linux ecosystem are doing much desktop-specific investment either. Apple's a bit more complicated because they still want to sell Macs so their operating system can't get too bad--but it's only there to sell MacBooks.
  - cyberax 2y ago
    > Windows is still very relevant, especially on servers Really? The only remnants of Windows Server, that I've seen within the last couple of years, were running Exchange and ActiveDirectory. Even SQL Server installations are moving to Linux.
- ekianjo 2y ago
  making profits and having a good product is 2 different things
  - listenallyall 2y ago
    yes but making huge profits (and employee compensation rising w/ stock grants and options) explains why nobody there is all that worried that users are unhappy with Windows
Krssst 2y ago
Compatibility with hardware and software means I have to use it even if I don't want to.
analog31 2y ago
I wonder if we're already lost (including myself in "we"). The average home user has ditched MS Office, and is using cloud apps such as Google Docs. They don't even have a reason to know what OS they're using. Things like battery life and wake-up times are what my work colleagues talk about at the lunch table. Setup might be a hassle, but occurs once in the life of the computer. Often, the discussion is in the context of an elderly relative who they're supporting. At the workplace, a large Microsoft shop is buying a complex package of products and services that I can't even identify all of the pieces of. There's Microsoft stuff on my work computer, and on my company supplied iPhone. I must sheepishly confess that it all just works. For myself at home, my main computer related interest is programming, and a programmer can live a platform-independent life if they want to. This is what I advocate, above and beyond my actual platform preference. What I suggest to friends if they're thinking of switching (to Linux, Mac, Chrome) is: First, achieve platform-independence by finding the tools that work across OS's. Get up to speed on those tools. Second, switch platforms. That way, you're 99% up to speed before you even switch.
- fendy3002 2y ago
  Can confirm, already use Linux more than 5 years. Never did touching desktop version of libre doc, google doc is better. Opened libre calc sometimes to open local csvs, otherwise google sheet for more advanced use case. Online tools are already advanced enough for most use case
  - bjelkeman-again 2y ago
    And once the online dominance is complete, the dark patterns will appear there too, I think. Just like Google search has gone down the drain.
LegitShady 2y ago
a whole bunch of older pcs are going to be completely useless or quickly become virus machines next year when windows 10 hits end of life and windows 11 won't support the intel 7x00 series of chips. A lot of people are going to be making the decision what computer to get next.
- bloomingeek 2y ago
  This! I've switched to Raspberry Pi OS on a Pi 5 now that a hat lets me use an m.2 SSD drive to boot the OS off of. It's a game changer for web surfing and email. It's also pretty quick for file transfers of music and video. As for my traditional Windows 10 machine that I game on, in the near future I'll be switching to the best Linux OS for Steam gaming. Two things made me mad enough to change: Win 11 with it's ads and other BS and I'm tired of transfer of data problems relating to both USB-3 and C plug-ins. I've had some experience with Linux, so the transition isn't a problem.
oleg_antonyan 2y ago
Switched to Linux in Windows' "golden age" - XP. Never looked back. There's one thing that reminds me that old Windows - cloud providers. Their configuration in UI looks a lot like group policies on Windows. Every time I have to deal with those IAM permissions in Google Cloud I get flashbacks, except now the UI is much slower
idk1 2y ago
The issue is the people switching are the kinds of people who set up family computers and recommend things to others. So there is this huge hidden knock on effect of people going from pro-windows to nutrual or recommending a different os. In the simplist terms, it's a similar reason youtube allows users with ad blockers, those people with ad blockers will still share videos to people without ad blockers. Very short-sighted move from Microsoft. All of this gain now from ad revenue but long-term damage to the brand.
- GreenWatermelon 2y ago
  YouTube is absolutely not ok with adblockers. They try their darnest but just can't keep up with the workarounds.

listenallyall 2y ago

- stock is at all-time high - "all the people" is probably actually well under 1% of users - successfully switched all corporate accounts from single-purchase w/ occasional renewal to ongoing monthly subscription - also a lot of of consumer subscriptions - Azure - Github - LinkedIn - OpenAI investment I actually agree with you that the Windows experience is getting worse, quickly. But on balance, seems more is going right than going wrong.

flakiness 2y ago
And I think that's why Windows gets worse. They just don't care anymore. I have wanted to like Windows and hoped Microsoft to get serious against these consumer-centric companies like Apple and Google, to use their cloud revenue to pump Windows up. That hasn't happened.
- WWLink 2y ago
  > Microsoft to get serious against these consumer-centric companies like Apple and Google Microsoft can't do that. It's not in their DNA. Every time Microsoft has tried to make something consumer-centric it ended up flopping eventually. Sometimes things lasted a surprisingly long time! But their consumer-focused stuff like Zune, Xbox, even their keyboards & mice, eventually all kinda lost focus. Windows mobile was a weird one because they tried to use the same formula they always use - a corporate OS that had all sorts of knobs and buttons for SysAdmins to manage corporate phones. You could join a Windows phone to a domain and manage it. Xbox was pretty successful for a while because MS just has so much clout with game developers. Zune flopped HARD. I think the Surface product line has been kinda here and there - a total failure for consumers but some businesses like it... but not many, because most businesses have a relationship with Dell.
  - gaudystead 2y ago
    RIP Zune. It was my favorite music player, especially being able to control it without looking at the controls. Tech industries have developed alternatives, but the intuitive features built into the Zune are something I've yet to see be matched. I suspect they moved some of those same UX engineers to the Surface & phone departments, but MS marketing departments seem to have control over things more than the actual UX designers, aaaand it all went to shit. I sincerely wish more people were able to enjoy the UX that their clever engineers designed, but I suspect their marketing departments were the downfall of those efforts.
- rkagerer 2y ago
  What OS does Bill Gates use these days?
tcmart14 2y ago
I don't think stock would be a good metric. If I had to guess, Windows at this point is probably just a cost center. Their main revenue streams are office362 and azure. The Windows OS itself is just a rounding error. Another way to put it. People aren't buying Microsoft stock because of Windows. They are buying because of Azure and Office365.
eitally 2y ago
To be fair, the Windows experience on managed corporate PCs that are imaged without all the fluff and adware is far superior to what consumers get. I frankly don't know why anyone who isn't tied to very specific software requirements would ever choose Windows anymore. I had to replace an aging Pixelbook last year and eventually decided the right decision was to get a Mac. It's stable, the hardware is high quality, it does what it needs to do, most non-enterprise software is available, and the custodian of the operating system isn't licensing my data to 3P advertisers. I almost went Linux -- and have built my own Linux machines dating back about twenty years -- but I just wanted a polished, lightweight laptop I didn't have to worry about. I almost bought a new Chromebook, but the software problem is more acute even if the OS is dead simple, and frankly, the hardware -- ever since the Pixelbook -- has been lacking polish (no matter which OEM you buy from).
- ghaff 2y ago
  The problem with the Chromebook is that it's basically an educational market product. And that's a different market from most professional users. I'd love a new travel-optimized Chromebook to replace one well out of support. But it really doesn't exist (and there really isn't a perfect MacBook either although the Air isn't bad, if pricey).
ghaff 2y ago
Desktop operating systems are increasingly irrelevant (to a first approximation). Windows is still very relevant, especially on servers, but even on corporate desktops; you just don't see a lot of Windows laptops at the sort of events and companies that most of the readers here are probably most familiar with. But it's not like most companies developing software for the largely Linux ecosystem are doing much desktop-specific investment either. Apple's a bit more complicated because they still want to sell Macs so their operating system can't get too bad--but it's only there to sell MacBooks.
- cyberax 2y ago
  > Windows is still very relevant, especially on servers Really? The only remnants of Windows Server, that I've seen within the last couple of years, were running Exchange and ActiveDirectory. Even SQL Server installations are moving to Linux.
ekianjo 2y ago
making profits and having a good product is 2 different things
- listenallyall 2y ago
  yes but making huge profits (and employee compensation rising w/ stock grants and options) explains why nobody there is all that worried that users are unhappy with Windows

Krssst 2y ago

Compatibility with hardware and software means I have to use it even if I don't want to.

analog31 2y ago

I wonder if we're already lost (including myself in "we"). The average home user has ditched MS Office, and is using cloud apps such as Google Docs. They don't even have a reason to know what OS they're using. Things like battery life and wake-up times are what my work colleagues talk about at the lunch table. Setup might be a hassle, but occurs once in the life of the computer. Often, the discussion is in the context of an elderly relative who they're supporting. At the workplace, a large Microsoft shop is buying a complex package of products and services that I can't even identify all of the pieces of. There's Microsoft stuff on my work computer, and on my company supplied iPhone. I must sheepishly confess that it all just works. For myself at home, my main computer related interest is programming, and a programmer can live a platform-independent life if they want to. This is what I advocate, above and beyond my actual platform preference. What I suggest to friends if they're thinking of switching (to Linux, Mac, Chrome) is: First, achieve platform-independence by finding the tools that work across OS's. Get up to speed on those tools. Second, switch platforms. That way, you're 99% up to speed before you even switch.

fendy3002 2y ago
Can confirm, already use Linux more than 5 years. Never did touching desktop version of libre doc, google doc is better. Opened libre calc sometimes to open local csvs, otherwise google sheet for more advanced use case. Online tools are already advanced enough for most use case
- bjelkeman-again 2y ago
  And once the online dominance is complete, the dark patterns will appear there too, I think. Just like Google search has gone down the drain.

LegitShady 2y ago

a whole bunch of older pcs are going to be completely useless or quickly become virus machines next year when windows 10 hits end of life and windows 11 won't support the intel 7x00 series of chips. A lot of people are going to be making the decision what computer to get next.

bloomingeek 2y ago
This! I've switched to Raspberry Pi OS on a Pi 5 now that a hat lets me use an m.2 SSD drive to boot the OS off of. It's a game changer for web surfing and email. It's also pretty quick for file transfers of music and video. As for my traditional Windows 10 machine that I game on, in the near future I'll be switching to the best Linux OS for Steam gaming. Two things made me mad enough to change: Win 11 with it's ads and other BS and I'm tired of transfer of data problems relating to both USB-3 and C plug-ins. I've had some experience with Linux, so the transition isn't a problem.

oleg_antonyan 2y ago

Switched to Linux in Windows' "golden age" - XP. Never looked back. There's one thing that reminds me that old Windows - cloud providers. Their configuration in UI looks a lot like group policies on Windows. Every time I have to deal with those IAM permissions in Google Cloud I get flashbacks, except now the UI is much slower

idk1 2y ago

The issue is the people switching are the kinds of people who set up family computers and recommend things to others. So there is this huge hidden knock on effect of people going from pro-windows to nutrual or recommending a different os. In the simplist terms, it's a similar reason youtube allows users with ad blockers, those people with ad blockers will still share videos to people without ad blockers. Very short-sighted move from Microsoft. All of this gain now from ad revenue but long-term damage to the brand.

GreenWatermelon 2y ago
YouTube is absolutely not ok with adblockers. They try their darnest but just can't keep up with the workarounds.