12 ms·

Because they don't want to be dependent on another country for energy infrastructure.

by spywaregorilla 2y ago

xattt 2y ago
Especially when another country is undercutting domestic production of others in order to impose an Orwellian ideology.
- TaylorAlexander 2y ago
  I think the truth is we just failed to invest in the manufacturing tech and now they’re beating us in the market, so we’re taxing them to make it hard for them to compete. I’d way rather we just invest and outcompete them. I don’t think they’re intentionally undercutting us they just have lower costs from decades of investment that we haven’t been doing ourselves.
  - spywaregorilla 2y ago
    They're undercutting us by virtue of labor standards and other corners that we don't cut.
    - TaylorAlexander 2y ago
      Honestly I know that used to be true, but how true is that today? Laborers in the USA don’t have great standards either. What proportion of the cost reduction comes from lower labor standards and what proportion comes from the fact that they absolutely have invested more in manufacturing than we have? I order my PCBAs from JLCPCB in China and they’re about 1/10th the cost of ordering something from the USA. But you can watch a factory tour, it’s not some horrible labor conditions it’s huge highly automated machines: https://youtu.be/jTBOSob5MLg https://youtu.be/jTBOSob5MLg They just invested more than we did. So maybe their labor conditions are still worse than ours, by some amount, but it’s more than just saving on labor that got their prices low.
      - almatabata 2y ago
        It can be multiple things at once. They did indeed invest a lot more into manufacturing but they are also definitely using slave labor to cut on costs (see https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/02/01/china-carmakers-implicated-uyghur-forced-labor https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/02/01/china-carmakers-implicat...). Who knows as well to which extent the government funds these companies and keeps them afloat. > But you can watch a factory tour, it’s not some horrible labor conditions it’s huge highly automated machines: https://youtu.be/jTBOSob5MLg https://youtu.be/jTBOSob5MLg Rhetorical question but do you really believe they would be allowed to publish anything showing a human rights violation on youtube? To get this footage he probably had to agree that all footage has to be reviewed by the company. There is no way they green light anything that makes them look bad. I would not be shocked if a party official had to be there to make sure he only shows the great side of everything.
        SequoiaHope 2y ago
        I’m not sharing the video as some foolish “proof” of the absence of labor violations. I’m sharing it as positive proof of the many very large highly automated high throughput machines they have! It’s clear they have invested a lot in machinery to produce their goods. Did the Chinese government help invest in that production capacity? I don’t know probably, but I think the US should be doing that too so my point that we failed to invest still stands. The point is, it’s not some evil communist plot to undercut us. They just actually invested in manufacturing and that’s what I’m trying to show with the video. Seriously click through it. There’s a lot of large high throughput automated machines there! There is no equivalent to that facility in the USA that I have ever heard of. Probably big companies like Intel have some impressive machinery but this is a job shop where anyone with $5 can place an order for PCBs. And I seriously doubt this is some North Korean style propaganda show where a bunch of slave labor is hidden behind a door. This factory is a state of the art PCB fabrication facility that gets cheap prices due to investment in capacity. They’re not cheating. They just actually invested and we’ve failed to catch up.
        coliveira 2y ago
    - coliveira 2y ago
      The USA cuts corners on labor standards for more than a century, but Europeans are Ok with that. The same logic applies, Europeans get a lot of their products and services from a country that has little to no safety nets for their workers, so by buying from USA, Europeans are funding their own demise.
      - account42 2y ago
        The EU sould also strive for more independence from US corporations, yes, especially the silicon valley ones. Having entire governments depend on Microsoft is a problem.
  - KerrAvon 2y ago
    The USA absolutely fucked manufacturing into the sun, but that doesn’t come back overnight, and China cheats in ways that we can’t. You have a comment below that seems to indicate you have no clue how bad they have it vs US blue collar workers. You might want to do some reading on that before pontificating on this subject.
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      I get what you're saying. But at the same time, the whole Boeing debacle makes me wonder how many other skeletons we're hiding. Either way, this is the consequences of letting corporations lobby to stifle innovation. They wanted short term money and we're all paying the price.
  - Ray20 2y ago
    There is no problem with the investments size, China had way less investments. The problem is in the amount of work and production regulations, which in some cases just doesn't exist in China.
johnnyanmac 2y ago
In that case, Great job divesting in domestic labor in lieu of offshoring. Mission accomplished

Because they don't want to be dependent on another country for energy infrastructure.

xattt 2y ago

Especially when another country is undercutting domestic production of others in order to impose an Orwellian ideology.

TaylorAlexander 2y ago
I think the truth is we just failed to invest in the manufacturing tech and now they’re beating us in the market, so we’re taxing them to make it hard for them to compete. I’d way rather we just invest and outcompete them. I don’t think they’re intentionally undercutting us they just have lower costs from decades of investment that we haven’t been doing ourselves.
- spywaregorilla 2y ago
  They're undercutting us by virtue of labor standards and other corners that we don't cut.
  - TaylorAlexander 2y ago
    Honestly I know that used to be true, but how true is that today? Laborers in the USA don’t have great standards either. What proportion of the cost reduction comes from lower labor standards and what proportion comes from the fact that they absolutely have invested more in manufacturing than we have? I order my PCBAs from JLCPCB in China and they’re about 1/10th the cost of ordering something from the USA. But you can watch a factory tour, it’s not some horrible labor conditions it’s huge highly automated machines: https://youtu.be/jTBOSob5MLg https://youtu.be/jTBOSob5MLg They just invested more than we did. So maybe their labor conditions are still worse than ours, by some amount, but it’s more than just saving on labor that got their prices low.
    - almatabata 2y ago
      It can be multiple things at once. They did indeed invest a lot more into manufacturing but they are also definitely using slave labor to cut on costs (see https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/02/01/china-carmakers-implicated-uyghur-forced-labor https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/02/01/china-carmakers-implicat...). Who knows as well to which extent the government funds these companies and keeps them afloat. > But you can watch a factory tour, it’s not some horrible labor conditions it’s huge highly automated machines: https://youtu.be/jTBOSob5MLg https://youtu.be/jTBOSob5MLg Rhetorical question but do you really believe they would be allowed to publish anything showing a human rights violation on youtube? To get this footage he probably had to agree that all footage has to be reviewed by the company. There is no way they green light anything that makes them look bad. I would not be shocked if a party official had to be there to make sure he only shows the great side of everything.
      - SequoiaHope 2y ago
        I’m not sharing the video as some foolish “proof” of the absence of labor violations. I’m sharing it as positive proof of the many very large highly automated high throughput machines they have! It’s clear they have invested a lot in machinery to produce their goods. Did the Chinese government help invest in that production capacity? I don’t know probably, but I think the US should be doing that too so my point that we failed to invest still stands. The point is, it’s not some evil communist plot to undercut us. They just actually invested in manufacturing and that’s what I’m trying to show with the video. Seriously click through it. There’s a lot of large high throughput automated machines there! There is no equivalent to that facility in the USA that I have ever heard of. Probably big companies like Intel have some impressive machinery but this is a job shop where anyone with $5 can place an order for PCBs. And I seriously doubt this is some North Korean style propaganda show where a bunch of slave labor is hidden behind a door. This factory is a state of the art PCB fabrication facility that gets cheap prices due to investment in capacity. They’re not cheating. They just actually invested and we’ve failed to catch up.
        coliveira 2y ago
  - coliveira 2y ago
    The USA cuts corners on labor standards for more than a century, but Europeans are Ok with that. The same logic applies, Europeans get a lot of their products and services from a country that has little to no safety nets for their workers, so by buying from USA, Europeans are funding their own demise.
    - account42 2y ago
      The EU sould also strive for more independence from US corporations, yes, especially the silicon valley ones. Having entire governments depend on Microsoft is a problem.
- KerrAvon 2y ago
  The USA absolutely fucked manufacturing into the sun, but that doesn’t come back overnight, and China cheats in ways that we can’t. You have a comment below that seems to indicate you have no clue how bad they have it vs US blue collar workers. You might want to do some reading on that before pontificating on this subject.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    I get what you're saying. But at the same time, the whole Boeing debacle makes me wonder how many other skeletons we're hiding. Either way, this is the consequences of letting corporations lobby to stifle innovation. They wanted short term money and we're all paying the price.
- Ray20 2y ago
  There is no problem with the investments size, China had way less investments. The problem is in the amount of work and production regulations, which in some cases just doesn't exist in China.

johnnyanmac 2y ago

In that case, Great job divesting in domestic labor in lieu of offshoring. Mission accomplished