5 ms·

It's a short term authoritarian bandaid that doesn't even help that many people, all the while fostering resentment and opening up increasingly authoritarian me

It's a short term authoritarian bandaid that doesn't even help that many people, all the while fostering resentment and opening up increasingly authoritarian measures in the future. We should go the asian route of increasing density and size. It's not like Barcelona is fully developed border to border.

shoulderfake 2y ago
Have you been to Barcelona? You can't put any more shit than there already is.
othello 2y ago
Barcelona has a 16,000 people per square km density - that’s already one of the highest in Europe. https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/barcelona-population#:~:text=The%20city%20proper%20has%20a,s%20most%20densely%20populated%20cities https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/barcelona-pop....
- hombre_fatal 2y ago
  It's 67th in the world and less dense than 11 French cities, though not a great comparison because most of those are small cities. But just because it's in the top 100 doesn't mean it's maxed out. It still has 5000/sqkm fewer people than Paris. Nor does it mean this trade off for a measly 10,000 flats is worth it in such a large city.
  - Detrytus 2y ago
    Please, the densities seen at the top of that list are really inhumane, more like prison camps than cities. Also, increasing density might be easy if you demolish 100 single family homes to build 10 five-stories buildings, but replacing Barcelona's 5-6 stories blocks with 10-stories ones isn't going to be economically viable. And if some brave developer tries this, then the resulting apartments won't be cheap.
lbwtaylor 2y ago
It's just basic urban planning and zoning. You can't run a factory in your apartment and you can't run a hotel. Plenty of cities restrict where hotels can operate. This is nothing special and certainly not authoritarian. These measures are quite popular because, shocking, people in residential neighborhoods like have real neighbors rather than hotel guests.
- hombre_fatal 2y ago
  Yes, obviously everyone wants to be the last person allowed to move in somewhere, that's why they support these sorts of policies that foment resentment. NIMBYism also stifles most development in the US. But I don't see how it's not authoritarian. Giving these 10k flats to locals isn't going to put a dent in the housing economy.
  - stavros 2y ago
    If you think zoning is authoritarian, you also think a bunch of normal, everyday measures are authoritarian.
  - edoloughlin 2y ago
    > But I don't see how it's not authoritarian. If this thread continues for a few more levels, I think you’ll end up justifying hiring your own private police force. Ownership requires that a state exists to enforce your rights. There are tradeoffs with this arrangement, one of which is that the state gets to set boundaries/limits on how you can use the thing you own. Ideally, acting with the best interests of the population. This sometimes includes ensuring areas are off limits to transient inhabitants so that a society can develop.
  - happytoexplain 2y ago
    > everyone wants to be the last person allowed to move in This is uncharitable. What everybody wants is for the place they call home, either by inheritance or hard work, to not be harmed by overdevelopment. People will have varyingly (un)reasonable opinions on what "over" means, but even a place with zero development has new residents - people do not live in one place forever, nor do they live forever.
zrn900 2y ago
> It's a short term authoritarian bandaid That's unintelligible. With that logic, every law and regulation is authoritarian. > all the while fostering resentment and opening up increasingly authoritarian measures in the future Here's the resentment: https://www.thestar.com.my/lifestyle/travel/2023/10/09/fed-up-with-mass-tourism-barcelona-locals-say-039tourists-go-home039 https://www.thestar.com.my/lifestyle/travel/2023/10/09/fed-u... And yes, the locals want more authoritarianism to keep away the overcrowding tourists, rich foreigners, and people who think like you. That's what the problem needs and what people like you understand.
- dang 2y ago
  Please make your substantive points without swipes (like "that's unintelligible" and "people like you"). This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Edit: yikes, you've unfortunately been breaking the site guidelines repeatedly and badly—examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40675193 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40675193 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40673804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40673804 We have to ban accounts that keep doing this, so please stop doing this, and please make sure you're not using HN primarily for political or ideological battle. (I suppose I should add the standard disclaimer that no, we don't care about your views. We care about your following the rules and using the site as intended, same as with any other user.)
  - zrn900 2y ago
    Under this post and in every single post you referenced, people are taking the largest swipes at entire countries, even peoples/races without any repercussions. > please make sure you're not using HN primarily for political or ideological battle All the threads you referenced are filled with people using the site in a political and ideological manner. There are people who are literally doing propaganda against entire countries and people. > no, we don't care about your views If you don't care about the views of the users, don't care about them in an egalitarian way. So far the rules seem to be getting applied selectively. > We have to ban accounts that keep doing this Feel free to do so. I'll get me coat myself. No need to contribute to a platform that not only does not care about its users' views but also applies its rules selectively and in an exceptionalist manner.
diggan 2y ago
> It's not like Barcelona is fully developed border to border The city of Barcelona quite literally is fully developed border to border. Or where are you suggesting these new developments are gonna be made?
permalac 2y ago
There is a democratic process on which tourists don't participate. I think this working as it should.

shoulderfake 2y ago

Have you been to Barcelona? You can't put any more shit than there already is.

othello 2y ago

Barcelona has a 16,000 people per square km density - that’s already one of the highest in Europe. https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/barcelona-population#:~:text=The%20city%20proper%20has%20a,s%20most%20densely%20populated%20cities https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/barcelona-pop....

hombre_fatal 2y ago
It's 67th in the world and less dense than 11 French cities, though not a great comparison because most of those are small cities. But just because it's in the top 100 doesn't mean it's maxed out. It still has 5000/sqkm fewer people than Paris. Nor does it mean this trade off for a measly 10,000 flats is worth it in such a large city.
- Detrytus 2y ago
  Please, the densities seen at the top of that list are really inhumane, more like prison camps than cities. Also, increasing density might be easy if you demolish 100 single family homes to build 10 five-stories buildings, but replacing Barcelona's 5-6 stories blocks with 10-stories ones isn't going to be economically viable. And if some brave developer tries this, then the resulting apartments won't be cheap.

lbwtaylor 2y ago

It's just basic urban planning and zoning. You can't run a factory in your apartment and you can't run a hotel. Plenty of cities restrict where hotels can operate. This is nothing special and certainly not authoritarian. These measures are quite popular because, shocking, people in residential neighborhoods like have real neighbors rather than hotel guests.

hombre_fatal 2y ago
Yes, obviously everyone wants to be the last person allowed to move in somewhere, that's why they support these sorts of policies that foment resentment. NIMBYism also stifles most development in the US. But I don't see how it's not authoritarian. Giving these 10k flats to locals isn't going to put a dent in the housing economy.
- stavros 2y ago
  If you think zoning is authoritarian, you also think a bunch of normal, everyday measures are authoritarian.
- edoloughlin 2y ago
  > But I don't see how it's not authoritarian. If this thread continues for a few more levels, I think you’ll end up justifying hiring your own private police force. Ownership requires that a state exists to enforce your rights. There are tradeoffs with this arrangement, one of which is that the state gets to set boundaries/limits on how you can use the thing you own. Ideally, acting with the best interests of the population. This sometimes includes ensuring areas are off limits to transient inhabitants so that a society can develop.
- happytoexplain 2y ago
  > everyone wants to be the last person allowed to move in This is uncharitable. What everybody wants is for the place they call home, either by inheritance or hard work, to not be harmed by overdevelopment. People will have varyingly (un)reasonable opinions on what "over" means, but even a place with zero development has new residents - people do not live in one place forever, nor do they live forever.

zrn900 2y ago

> It's a short term authoritarian bandaid That's unintelligible. With that logic, every law and regulation is authoritarian. > all the while fostering resentment and opening up increasingly authoritarian measures in the future Here's the resentment: https://www.thestar.com.my/lifestyle/travel/2023/10/09/fed-up-with-mass-tourism-barcelona-locals-say-039tourists-go-home039 https://www.thestar.com.my/lifestyle/travel/2023/10/09/fed-u... And yes, the locals want more authoritarianism to keep away the overcrowding tourists, rich foreigners, and people who think like you. That's what the problem needs and what people like you understand.

dang 2y ago
Please make your substantive points without swipes (like "that's unintelligible" and "people like you"). This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Edit: yikes, you've unfortunately been breaking the site guidelines repeatedly and badly—examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40675193 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40675193 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40673804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40673804 We have to ban accounts that keep doing this, so please stop doing this, and please make sure you're not using HN primarily for political or ideological battle. (I suppose I should add the standard disclaimer that no, we don't care about your views. We care about your following the rules and using the site as intended, same as with any other user.)
- zrn900 2y ago
  Under this post and in every single post you referenced, people are taking the largest swipes at entire countries, even peoples/races without any repercussions. > please make sure you're not using HN primarily for political or ideological battle All the threads you referenced are filled with people using the site in a political and ideological manner. There are people who are literally doing propaganda against entire countries and people. > no, we don't care about your views If you don't care about the views of the users, don't care about them in an egalitarian way. So far the rules seem to be getting applied selectively. > We have to ban accounts that keep doing this Feel free to do so. I'll get me coat myself. No need to contribute to a platform that not only does not care about its users' views but also applies its rules selectively and in an exceptionalist manner.

diggan 2y ago

> It's not like Barcelona is fully developed border to border The city of Barcelona quite literally is fully developed border to border. Or where are you suggesting these new developments are gonna be made?

permalac 2y ago

There is a democratic process on which tourists don't participate. I think this working as it should.