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I have an ADHD diagnosis. I think the diagnostic criteria is a joke (and I know at least 3-4 people who have gotten a diagnosis because they just wanted stimula

I have an ADHD diagnosis. I think the diagnostic criteria is a joke (and I know at least 3-4 people who have gotten a diagnosis because they just wanted stimulants, so its not as hard as you might think), and having thought about all these things for a long time now I just have an entirely different interpretation. I used to 100% believe and push the ideas you are talking about so grant me the belief that I am not coming from a place of ignorance or hatred. >People without ADHD are able to force themselves to do things they have no interest in, just because it needs to be done. I don't think this is substantiated, or at least is far too simplistic. What do you consider needs to be "done"? As I said for example, to me this would mean life critical things, like you press on the brakes when you need to, you run out of fire when there is one, not you focus hours a day on something for a goal 20 years out because it will make your life a better one in the future. Thats not something I "need" to do, its something I wish I wanted just to avoid the consequences of being berated, feeling inadequate, etc. And if I found that I am able to get away with it doing things with the least possible effort, then that seems like a perfectly rational and functional thing for an animal to do. I tell ya, if I could go back, what I'd do is give far less of a fuck. I think you have far more "executive control" than you think, I think its the narrow criteria, the one pressured by the existing societal/economic structure, you are evaluating against. How many people have trouble exercising for example, despite knowing how important it is? People fail to control their urges when it comes to their eating habits, sexual urges, their emotions, addictions and all manner of things. >My experience of school was that it was totally ignorant of the fact that some people have interests and like to learn things, and was based almost entirely on the idea of forcing behaviors with the threat of negative consequences - and for better or worse it was able to force most kids, but not the ones with ADHD. I don't know about that. I'd say in a class of ~500 people, maybe 50-75 were actually all that focused on succeeding, and most of them were from well off with wealthy families and good homes. The bottom 100-200 didn't give a flying fuck, and ditched classes, smoked weed in school, cheated as much as they could. The average person Id say maybe cared somewhat, but wasn't all that motivated and did what they had to do to get by. I only felt like I had adhd because I felt that I cared more than the rest of the kids, but wasnt able to do my work. But what was required was so far off who I am as a person that looking back its unreasonable that Id be able to have. I mean it would literally make me angry thinking about stupid the assignments were, thats all I could think about trying to do them. >Hyperfocusing on things you love is what you are describing in your second longer paragraph, and that is a key symptom of ADHD. In some instances it can be a huge advantage- I am a successful scientist because I hyperfocus on problems, and solve them. There are some real advantages to ADHD, along with many disadvantages, and ability to focus more deeply without distraction on things you are passionate about is a big advantage. So imagine you were in a different environment that catered to your interests or style of learning. Now all of a sudden you're motivated, succeeding and everyone wants to be like you. Do you feel troubled, wanting to go to a psychiatrist to be diagnosed? Imagine you put all the "normal" people into an environment void of social interaction, non concrete assignments, and whatever other characteristics of normal school, and evaluated them and berated them on the tasks you're able to focus on. Do you think they'd just be able to adapt? And would failing to do so would grant them a diagnosis? Another thing I found really surprising is that when I got my second job, all of a sudden I was insanely happy, motivated, focused at work and outside it. Then things changed again. I'd pretty sure Id get an ADHD diagnosis any year before that, but those two years? No way. I was more focused and motivated than now where I am taking 30mg of adderall every day. How could that be? The answer is a difference of a bunch of life factors, like the fact that my job now is boring as hell, I dont have much friends, Im not physically active as I used to, etc. These are all CRITICAL factors in focus, and its not something the diagnostic criteria is really even able to factor out. Now, it does make complete sense that people's brain vary and some us are wired differently, with some people being more risk tolerant (and thus not caring as much about future consequences), some people needing more stimulation to feel motivated, etc. But IMO, what we consider ADHD is far more complicated than a lack of "executive control"

_yb2s 2y ago
My apologies for assuming you were ignorant about ADHD. I agree what I was saying about focus is too simplistic, I was incorrectly thinking you weren't understanding even a simplified explanation of ADHD. I think it's more accurate to say that the combination of factors that influence attention is different for people with ADHD, with a lot more emphasis on interest and less on other factors. When you say "its something I wish I wanted just to avoid the consequences of being berated, feeling inadequate, etc." - I think most people without ADHD are able to choose to do those things anyways if they decide it is a top priority, and put a lot of effort into it. I have chosen to do those things, tried to put in a lot of effort and energy, to no effect. That's not to say it's even a good idea to be able to do that, but it is a fundamental difference. I've wanted things a lot badder than other people, fought a lot harder for them, and been unable to do them, when I saw other people with very little interest or desire do them easily- and they were even less fundamentally capable of actually doing them, but able to consistently sit down and make progress. I also agree that what is defined as a psychiatric disorder or disability depends on cultural context- but it's not cultural alone, it's an interaction between the natural variability between people, and the cultural context. Where someone is different mentally in a way they can't control, that causes them to suffer, within the context of a given cultures norms and expectations, that is the origin of all mental disorders. ADHD is a 'different' brain phenotype that isn't fundamentally worse- it also has some serious advantages, and I agree that in a culture where ADHD people were normal, non-ADHD people would be seen to be disabled. They would be seen to have a "flightly" and "shallow" attention that shifts from one thing to another on short intervals, and is too influenced by things like social demands, and not actual interest or passion. People with ADHD are also used to exerting a lot more mental effort to get things done, and build a stronger will as a result. For example, I have a hobby doing competitive strength competitions, and the mental effort I usually expend to get my work done, makes it really easy to push through physically painful and grueling training and competition that other people usually can't do. It's like I'm normally pushing against a wall all day long to no effect, but in this particular activity, I suddenly have no such wall and everything feels easy when it's hard for others. Those lifestyle factors that influenced your focus, happiness, and motivation level are huge, and are useful tools for people with ADHD. However, there is a counter cultural narrative that those type of things shouldn't matter, and that you should just double down and do your work without worrying about things like that. This narrative might work for some people, but is especially a disaster for people with ADHD, but getting a diagnosis, and getting in a community of people that help each other find tools that work can be an antidote to that. Our culture has a lot of protestant work ethic values - that it is fundamentally morally superior to just do your expected duties, even if, especially if, you really don't want to do them. I've also had times in my life where I was in a situation where I had a lot of focus and motivation, without any ADHD medication. But I see the effectiveness of these situations as exactly supporting the narrative of executive control dysfunction - if you engineer your environment and situation so less executive control is required to meet your goals, this is a powerful tool for managing ADHD. If you understand ADHD and what factors affect the level of executive control required, instead of happening on good periods in your life just by luck, you can create them consistently. That is, I think a more powerful (but not mutually exclusive) approach than even medication. Consistently having fun, playing, and adventuring in your work and life in general is a very effective ADHD management technique. Would you summarize your view on ADHD as that it is just a mismatch between some subset of people, and protestant work ethic as a system for motivation? And that, since the protestant work ethic is fundamentally shitty, ADHD shouldn't be seen as a disability? I can agree with that somewhat, but it's of little help to a kid suffering in school. Moreover, I find ADHD treatment to make me better at things I do love. I want to be able to finish projects I start. I want to be able to notice when I'm in a sailboat race that a sail is trimmed wrong, and not hyperfocus on something else.

_yb2s 2y ago

My apologies for assuming you were ignorant about ADHD. I agree what I was saying about focus is too simplistic, I was incorrectly thinking you weren't understanding even a simplified explanation of ADHD. I think it's more accurate to say that the combination of factors that influence attention is different for people with ADHD, with a lot more emphasis on interest and less on other factors. When you say "its something I wish I wanted just to avoid the consequences of being berated, feeling inadequate, etc." - I think most people without ADHD are able to choose to do those things anyways if they decide it is a top priority, and put a lot of effort into it. I have chosen to do those things, tried to put in a lot of effort and energy, to no effect. That's not to say it's even a good idea to be able to do that, but it is a fundamental difference. I've wanted things a lot badder than other people, fought a lot harder for them, and been unable to do them, when I saw other people with very little interest or desire do them easily- and they were even less fundamentally capable of actually doing them, but able to consistently sit down and make progress. I also agree that what is defined as a psychiatric disorder or disability depends on cultural context- but it's not cultural alone, it's an interaction between the natural variability between people, and the cultural context. Where someone is different mentally in a way they can't control, that causes them to suffer, within the context of a given cultures norms and expectations, that is the origin of all mental disorders. ADHD is a 'different' brain phenotype that isn't fundamentally worse- it also has some serious advantages, and I agree that in a culture where ADHD people were normal, non-ADHD people would be seen to be disabled. They would be seen to have a "flightly" and "shallow" attention that shifts from one thing to another on short intervals, and is too influenced by things like social demands, and not actual interest or passion. People with ADHD are also used to exerting a lot more mental effort to get things done, and build a stronger will as a result. For example, I have a hobby doing competitive strength competitions, and the mental effort I usually expend to get my work done, makes it really easy to push through physically painful and grueling training and competition that other people usually can't do. It's like I'm normally pushing against a wall all day long to no effect, but in this particular activity, I suddenly have no such wall and everything feels easy when it's hard for others. Those lifestyle factors that influenced your focus, happiness, and motivation level are huge, and are useful tools for people with ADHD. However, there is a counter cultural narrative that those type of things shouldn't matter, and that you should just double down and do your work without worrying about things like that. This narrative might work for some people, but is especially a disaster for people with ADHD, but getting a diagnosis, and getting in a community of people that help each other find tools that work can be an antidote to that. Our culture has a lot of protestant work ethic values - that it is fundamentally morally superior to just do your expected duties, even if, especially if, you really don't want to do them. I've also had times in my life where I was in a situation where I had a lot of focus and motivation, without any ADHD medication. But I see the effectiveness of these situations as exactly supporting the narrative of executive control dysfunction - if you engineer your environment and situation so less executive control is required to meet your goals, this is a powerful tool for managing ADHD. If you understand ADHD and what factors affect the level of executive control required, instead of happening on good periods in your life just by luck, you can create them consistently. That is, I think a more powerful (but not mutually exclusive) approach than even medication. Consistently having fun, playing, and adventuring in your work and life in general is a very effective ADHD management technique. Would you summarize your view on ADHD as that it is just a mismatch between some subset of people, and protestant work ethic as a system for motivation? And that, since the protestant work ethic is fundamentally shitty, ADHD shouldn't be seen as a disability? I can agree with that somewhat, but it's of little help to a kid suffering in school. Moreover, I find ADHD treatment to make me better at things I do love. I want to be able to finish projects I start. I want to be able to notice when I'm in a sailboat race that a sail is trimmed wrong, and not hyperfocus on something else.